Behind the scenes with Brianne, chatting rewilding, sustainable business, lawn culture and a look into my life.

It was my birthday a couple of weeks ago and to celebrate we did things a little differently. Kate, one of the team from Business, but Better joined me and peppered me with millions of questions.

It's a behind the scenes peek at my life, business thoughts and sustainability advice. Kate wouldn't let me leave until she had asked all the questions she wanted.

Find us online:
‍‍www.briannewest.com
‍‍https://www.instagram.com/briannemwest/
‍‍https://www.tiktok.com/@briannemwest
‍‍https://www.youtube.com/@briannemwest‍

‍Wanna know more about Incrediballs?
‍‍www.incrediballs.com‍
‍https://www.instagram.com/incrediballsdrinks/
‍‍https://www.tiktok.com/@incrediballsdrinks
‍
‍‍Business, but Better (the FREE education hub for founders & entrepreneurs):‍
‍www.businessbutbetter.com‍
‍https://www.tiktok.com/@businessbutbetter‍
https://www.facebook.com/groups/businessbutbetter
‍https://www.instagram.com/businessbutbetter

Transcript:

Brianne (Intro): Kia ora kaitiaki and welcome to Now That's What I Call Green, the podcast that uses a science-based approach to expose the bullshit green scams and helps you understand the sustainability world that little bit better. So if you are looking to navigate through everything green or not so green, you have come to the right place.

Kate: Welcome to The Diary of a CEO. Just kidding. I think there's a podcast with that name and it's already taken. I am not an active listener called Stephen Bartlett. I am organised chaos and I am an interviewer called Kate. And today I am sitting down with Brianne West to ask her interview questions with a twist. Are you ready? Probably not. She looks excited.

Brianne: I'm very excited.

Kate: She’s frowning…

Brianne: I don’t frown. Is why I have a fringe, you can't tell that I'm frowning.

Kate: Okay, I've just invented a new facial feature for her. She now frowns because of me. I don't want to ask questions about Ethique today. There are plenty of interviews online about how Brianne stood down as CEO when it was a $100 million business. I want to know “the Lazy Human's Guide to Sustainability” and get her to share behind the scenes of Business But Better, Insprie, and Incrediballs and see what's coming up next for Brianne personally.

Brianne: Are you calling me lazy?

Kate: No, I'm saying we all are. And you are the leader and we need help. To set the scene, we're at Breanne's house. She has a podcast room full of diving gear. She has 65-

Brianne: What do you have in your podcast room?

Kate: I don't even have a podcast room. But she has diving gear, so it's very much her hobby and creative room. She has 65 animals plus the random chickens that show up daily. And it's a not, not sunny day, but not a brightly sunny day. That's what she said. And we are looking out over an amazing garden of wild florals and a little stream home to Elon Musk, her oversized eel.

Brianne: Yes, who has not come back actually since he bit Bear. So I don't know where he's gone. He's probably gone. I'm not going there again. Fuck that.

Kate: Did you give him the frown?

Brianne: I gave him the frown. Yeah. Well, I wasn't there because, you know, I would have wrestled him. You know, me and the eel would have, you know, we would have wrestled. The eel would have won because that would have been so funny to put on TikTok. Most viral video. Anyway….

Brianne: Traumatic for Bear and the eel.

Kate: Yeah, poor Bear. Bear is a very big dog. He comes up to my waist, plus plus, and like I wouldn't want to come up to him in a dark alley, but then he'd like love you to death. And he brought me his teddy bear. So anyway, we're good pals. All right, more on the animals later. My first question is, before the wildflowers on your amazing property, what did the backyard of your home look like?

Brianne: Oh, that's a good question. Looking, thinking back of the, so I bought a lifestyle block about three and a half years ago and it took me six months to make it livable, really. Like the inside of the house is just like, had bullet holes in it and locks on all the outside of the doors. And we don't think about what it was, it was fine. But the previous owners, the ones who'd built it, they had put a lot of effort into really lovely landscaping and lots of natives. And unfortunately, the owner between them just had not had the passion for it or not had the time. So it all gone to wreck and overgrown ruin. So there was just nothing really living, nothing happy or healthy, none of the irrigation worked. It was full to bursting with weed mat, which when I'm Supreme Overlord, will be one of the many things that is made illegal. I hate weed mat.

Kate: And raisins.

Brianne: And raisins, raisins are dead too. Raisins are gone, I'm very sorry (not sorry at all). So it was just pretty miserable. There was no life, there was no insect life, there was no bird life, and it was just barren. And I wanted to make it better.

Kate: You've done a great job, and I feel from your TikTok videos, so you don't make it look easy, I mean, you're like a drowned rat in one of them, and you're carrying things that look heavy and you're driving heavy machinery. So you don't make it look easy, but you don't make it look impossible to change your backyard in New Zealand. What do you think, aside from money, because none of this conversation is going to be related, or depend on money to make these changes, I want it to be about everything else, what do you think is holding Kiwis back from developing their lawn into something more environmentally supportive and why is that important?

Brianne: I honestly think people just don't think about it. Because you have a house, you have a lawn, you've rented a flat, you have a lawn, it's just kind of part and parcel of it, right?

Kate: Like a cultural...

Brianne: Yeah, and it is a cultural thing. Lawns have got a really interesting history way back from medieval and they're all about status. You didn't have to turn your lawn into something to grow food. You could just have a recreational space. You could afford that. That's where it comes from. The original ancient times when cholera was every second day and syphilis was every other day.

Kate: Let's hope that's changed, but the lawns, they can go.

Brianne: Yeah, so now people, I just don't think they think about it. And also, the idea of digging up a lawn, it's a lot of work. So I don't want people to dig up their whole lawn immediately. Just dig a little bit of a hole into it and create like a, what I call an insect island. And that's literally, you know, it could be a square metre patch that you just fill with plants and it just stops this monoculture of lawn, which is just really bad for the environment. It's like a barren wasteland.

Kate: And for the apartment dwellers, those that don't have even any lawn, what could they do internally?

Brianne: If you've got balconies, for sure, you can pop some plants on there if you wanted to. You could put out a bird feeder or two, again, if it's sort of relevant wherever you are. If you don't have a balcony, then probably not a lot. You could certainly have indoor plants, and I don't know if indoor plants really serve any great environmental benefit, to be fair, but they certainly do have an improvement on your health. They do help with a little bit of interior air pollution because you have lots of vox and volatile organic compounds from paint and carpet. Inside air quality, particularly in new homes, is actually quite scary. And plants help, or some plants, help with that.

Kate: Okay. So this podcast is all about Brianne to celebrate her 37th birthday.

Brianne: Thank you for telling everyone.

Kate: Yep, she's 37 and now we've all just learned our homes need some indoor plants. So buy yourself a birthday gift and get something on the bench because the paint and the carpet quality, I had never considered. That sounds like I'm getting my mum a plant for her birthday in the new subdivision.

Brianne: Yeah, well that's why you have companies like the natural paint companies that have, I don't know if they have no or they certainly have much lower VOCs or VOCs and natural carpets, wall carpets and things. But of course, they come with a higher price tag. As per usual, being better for you and better for the environment is more expensive in the short term.

Kate: Yes, that's right. And it pays off. I loved actually when we were renovating our house, I picked wall carpet and I'm with ANZ and they gave us a 1% mortgage rate on the carpet to encourage us. Yep, so anything we did, double glazing, carpet, I could assign all of those dollars to a 1% mortgage rate. Everything else was on 7%, you know, whatever. But they really encouraged that and I enjoyed that. Because without that, like that was beneficial for me to make the best choice. That's what we need from banks. So working flexibly from home and in this beautiful spot is a privilege and I know that you recognize that. I have now known you for a year and I've actually never asked you this. What is the longest duration that you have gone without doing any work? Not one email, check, like nothing.

Brianne: However I answer this question I'm going to sound like a dick.

Kate: Judge away folks.

Brianne: I don't know because it might sound a bit dumb but I don't consider emails working. And because you have emails on your phone, so I think it's impossible to answer that question.

Kate: 10 minutes?

Brianne: Probably, because you've got an Instagram notification from one of your business accounts come up, or you've got, I don't know, TikTok or emails, or someone gives you a call. And I don't know if I consider that work. Actually, that's not true, because whenever I'm diving, you know, I'm out on a boat, I'm not working on a dive boat. So it can be like eight hours.

Kate: Eight hours. And that is really cool because I feel like you're a good balance of not glorifying the hustle but also recognizing that building a startup is hard work. And you always speak to me and I'm sure anyone who asks that if you're finding work fun or you can choose your hours or whatever, it's less of a negative or a chore. You make it work for you. And that is one of the benefits that comes from having a successful business.

Brianne: I don't like the idea of work-life balance because it means that you can't sort of work together. But if you implement or integrate, rather, your work into your life, if you love it, then that in itself is a massive privilege, right? Then it becomes less of an issue, I suppose.

Kate: Okay. Anytime I tell anyone that I work with you, they ask me the same three questions. Okay, so we're going to nail the first two first. They always ask me, “Is she married with kids?” And the second one is “how old is she?”

Brianne: Well they know that now.

Kate: Yeah, spoiler alert. And the third one, we'll get to it in a second, but I think they're asking me the first two questions, one, because I'm not you, so it's easier to go sideways, right? But I also think they're asking it to make a mark to compare their success to, do you know what I mean? Because if I say, oh, she's 37, then it's like, oh, well, I'm 39 and I've not done that. And I know that you will not want people who follow you to do that.

Brianne: No. So the idea that you have to achieve certain things by certain milestones is ridiculous.

Kate: Yes, and I wanted to clear that up and confirm for anyone listening that it's interesting to ask those questions and you're welcome to answer the first one if you want.

Brianne: Yeah, I was married and I'm not anymore. I got divorced I think three years later and still amicable, friendly, but just marriage isn't for buggy sus, but mainly me probably.

Kate: And no kids, but I mean, she has enough animals.

Brianne: Never wanted children.

Kate: There are some light comparisons. There are people who don't like people to say, oh, having a pet is like a kid. Okay, fair because you can obviously not leave a baby unattended but...

Brianne: And also having a kid is like taking your heart out of your body and letting it run around on its own and I can't think of anything more terrifying. Animals are not that extinct. Obviously you'd be devastated when they move on but it's not the same.

Kate: See, I don't know. Not the same, but I've seen you and the way you care for Bear and Bear's had like his troubles, he's been sick and stuff. I genuinely think you love Bear the most you could possibly love. So it's quite, it is quite interesting and I again don't want people to watch your TikTok and if you say something like, “oh, they've all snuck in and made a mess” or whatever. Like, that so is like having a child. They go into your barn and I see them buffeting the hay. Like, that is, you're allowed, I feel like people should be allowed to relate that a little bit, but recognizing that there is a physiological difference.

Brianne: And you can put them in a paddock, right? You can't do that with a child. It's frowned upon.

Kate: Hmmmmm…But my five-year-old bloody loves a tractor. Well, that's true. His dream is to live at your age.

Brianne: I'd let him become a driver, but I think it may be a bit big.

Kate: So there you go. Those of the most, I guess, the most personal questions, those first two.

Brianne: I think that's sad. I hope people don't think that they're 40, 56, that they haven't achieved enough by that age. It is a shame, and I know people do feel that way. I think that I have achieved all the things I wanted to at 37. I can't believe I'm 37. Well, I'm nearly 37.

Kate: Yeah, and I also think from our Business But Better community and the people you mentor and the American stats they put out online, a lot of entrepreneurs, if that is what you are marking the success against or the child-free people or whatever you're marking it against, there's always going to be someone that fits a box. There's an entrepreneur who doesn't make any money. Who is it? With Snoop Dogg, the lady with, what's her name? She's got blonde hair, she is the kitchen… Martha Stewart. Martha Stewart, she didn't make money, like her millions, until later on or whatever. People told her she'd be a failure. So I think there's plenty of examples that are gonna fix any box. So even if you idolise or, you know, can appreciate and be inspired by someone on TikTok, I just want to take that moment to clear that up because I don't feel like you ever get a chance to be like, “no, don't compare to me.”

Kate: Yeah, I don't really talk about me personally that much. There's lots of stories out there. I mean, the bloke behind KFC, Colonel Sanders, if that's his real name, right? He didn't start until he was 65. Sarah from Spanx, she didn't get married till she was 37 and had children really late in life because she chose business. There's loads and loads of ways to do life and you shouldn't feel one way or the other because you do it differently.

Kate: Yeah, and I even sometimes feel that guilt. Like if my friends or my mum who was home for five years with my sister and I and loved being at home, she couldn't think of anything worse than going back to work. You just cannot compare. So the third question I get when people want my sneaky intel is, ooh, actually, I've just thought of a fourth. They're also like “will she invest in my company?” They don't even tell me the name. They're just like, is she good for that? And I'm like, mate, there's a form on the industry website. Please head to the left, okay? But anyway, the other question is, how do I be more sustainable? I love when they ask me this because I know very little, very little. I'm learning don't get me wrong. But anyway, I'm a lazy human. Being lazy has given me the gift of efficiency I'll find a faster way to do something if it bores me It also made me a good delegator which a lot of business owners struggle with but when it comes to sustainability, you can't delegate your own actions really and you can only improve what you do. So does it annoy you when people ask you how to be more sustainable?

Brianne: God, no. Love that.

Kate: That's good. I thought you might.

Brianne: They might find my answers annoying.

Kate: No, but I thought you might think, oh, like all the information is online.

Brianne: Oh, no. No, because yes, there is more information than any one person could ever take in and they like, obviously, it's understated. But applying it to yourself is very different. There is a couple of key things to being more sustainable if you like and it's funny that we now use sustainable as like a ‘journey’ as opposed to the idea of what sustainable means. But stop buying stuff you don't need. Super easy. Vote for politicians who actually give a shit about the planet and have actionable science-based policies behind it. Third one would be to work with brands, talk to brands and demand that they do better. You can do that in a very respectful manner and show them that you care as a consumer because our consumer dollars are the most powerful thing and business is the only way we will change the world because politicians have proven that they won't. And then it's all your other things of course, but at the end of the day, be sustainable is about doing everything you can with stuff you already own. Consumerism is at the heart of most sustainability issues, right? Which is super easy to say and hard to do because you're also marketed every 10 seconds by different things. But don't buy stuff unless you need it, and if you need it, then have a look and what are the best choices you can make. But that is why I say sustainability isn't about being wealthy or wealthier because yes, unfortunately, more sustainable things do tend to be more expensive because they are a better supply chain typically, they are paying people a fairer wage, that all makes sense. But you also buy less the more sustainable you're trying to be. Right?

Kate: Yeah, does a better job.

Brianne: But also you buy less stuff, right? You don't need 14 different tops in your wardrobe.

Kate: Drink bottles.

Brianne: Yeah, you don't need to, the average American has seven reusable drink bottles, right? You just, you buy less, so it's not, yes, sustainable stuff typically lasts longer, but you're not about chasing and buying a new set of pyjamas every week.

Kate: No. Do you think that your mum and dad, lovely humans, shout out Janette and Martin, do you think that they had an impact on you, like your sustainability journey? Yeah, tell us a wee bit about your childhood and did they impact that or is it something that you found on your own?

Brianne: Well, they never used to be, they're more into it now, but they never used to be into sustainability, if you like.

Kate: A different time, too. Like, I feel like every...

Brianne: It just wasn't the concern it was, because they lived in a more sustainable manner, by definition, right?

Kate: Yeah.

Brianne: They always encouraged my studies and passion for science, for animals, and those naturally lead to thinking about the environment and trying to protect it, so they did in that way, but, you know, they weren't out there digging insect islands, but there was lots of other ways they encouraged it, I suppose, yeah. The only reason I've managed to do anything on this lifestyle block is because I do have a gardener, and I know that's a special level of privilege in itself. He's an 87-year-old bloke who came with the house, and he's just wonderful. But there's also, if they hadn't helped, I would never have achieved anything. I'd still be out there trying to dig a couple of holes.

Kate: I think that's a huge part of sustainability, or even just running a business, is the more support you have around you, the more likely you are to follow through with it. And then you're my business mentor and you've got a bazillion mentees. Like that's quite a specific number I've just thrown out there. But you've got...

Kate: Is it a real number, bazillion? How many billions is that?

Kate: Bazillion, not brazilian. That's not for the birthday special guys. That's not a number. That will be for when she's 38. No, but we are talking bazillion. You've got a great range of industries. You've got a great range of people at different stages with Business But Better and Inspirite. We start every fortnightly mentoring session with our one-liners. Yes, I get to put her on the hot seat!

Brianne: God. I'm really, really crapping it.

Kate: Okay, what is your one-liner for Business But Better?

Brianne: We help ethical entrepreneurs start and scale businesses that change the world.

Kate: I started with the easiest one first.

Brianne: You did.

Kate: She's had a year for that one.

Brianne: Thank you. And Spree's is the same.

Kate: Oh, and Insprie is the same. Just different scale, largely. Or if you like, we help ethical entrepreneurs take their product brand to the world.

Kate: I do like.

Kate: I think that better because me and my colleagues, we're not ready to take it to the world yet. We're ready to just get it into Aotearoa. What about Incrediballs?

Brianne: We're working on this because it's difficult. I don't have a one-liner, I guess. I'm ready to the world of plastic bottles would be the obvious one because it's what I used to use for Ethique and it's precisely that reason I don't want to use that. Stuff like we're shaking up the drinks industry. A one-liner in my mind shouldn't say what you are doing, it should entice and engineer a little bit of curiosity in the person you're saying it to. And that's when I always talk about the Obama thing, right? But I would say something along the lines of we're taking the plastic waste out of the drinks industry, something along those lines.

Kate: Yeah, cool.

Brianne: Because then the next question is, oh, how are you doing that? Well, we have drink tabs.

Kate: Yes. Something like that. And they'll be like, that sounds like an illegal drug.

Brianne: Yes, and if you go and have a look in my kitchen, there's all these little white tablets everywhere. You'll be like, what? Okay, straight to jail.

Kate: Yes, and actually, I've got a sneaky background insight. They look like odd fellow mints.

Brianne: But thankfully, not quite that large.

Kate: Yeah, not that large, but that surprised me because obviously, we first thought they were going to be bull-shaped.

Brianne: Well, they're not actually. Well, what you've seen today isn't actually what they're going to look like. So that way they're going to be colored and they're a different shape.

Kate: Ignore my insight. It was incorrect. Man, I'm trying to give the people some...

Brianne: I know, I know. I won't even let you do it. They're going to be a little bit cooler looking.

Kate: Oh, cool. Okay. Well, they've come a long way. Okay. Deep and meaningful. So, Brianne, classically. Yeah, I'm a feelings girl. I'm like a... You're quite a marketing feelings person, which is quite interesting.

Brianne: Yeah, but I can't do it myself.

Kate: Yeah, okay. Anyway, hates feelings. She got her tear ducts removed as a child or something like that.

Brianne: I don't, but I cry a lot. I just don’t do it in front of people.

Kate: Oh okay great. Have you cried over Incrediballs yet?

Brianne: No I don't think so.

Kate: Oh, okay good. Boring for a story but yeah that's great for your mental health.

Brianne: But then floods of tears like three days ago. No I don't think I've cried over Incrediballs yet, but the word yet is in there for a reason.

Kate: Yeah. It can be happy tears, as my kids call it.

Brianne: Yeah, no, no. After our launch day. Not yet.

Kate: When did you cry over Ethique for the first time?

Brianne: Probably the first day. I don't know. I remember many horrendous events, like the time when our supplier lied to my face and told me that our most critical ingredient was on the way, which made up 30% of our bars on average. That was in October. We missed, he lied to me continually for three months and I couldn't get it from anywhere else. So we missed Christmas. I think that was in our second year. That was not fun. I would deal with that quite a lot differently now. But I also didn't want to be horrible. I didn't want to be mean. I didn't want to nag him. It's stupid. It's dead-ear brain.

Kate: No, well, you're still a nice person and it still takes a big level of confrontation.

Brianne: If I'm honest, I still wouldn't. I'd get Tristan to go and do it. I'm not the confrontational one. And that's why you surround yourself with people who have different strengths. I cried when we went viral around the world because I didn't know how we were going to do the 100,000 supporters. I cried a lot.

Kate: Oh, well, it worked out in the end.

Brianne: Yeah, it was okay.

Kate: End of podcast. Thanks for coming. No, just kidding. We've got more. We've got more. And I imagine that this time round comes with a very different set of worries, like starting a startup of a similar-ish nature, obviously completely different industry context, but more pressure potentially because you have the expectation from...

Brianne: I feel like everyone thinks it's going to go really well and it might not.

Kate: Which is funny because as a person who's on the other side of that and then even further people who don't follow you as closely, we all hope it goes well but we're not actually sitting here like, it has to go well or we're going to think she's a loser. You know what I mean? You feel that pressure.

Brianne: Yeah, because people don't think about you anywhere near as much as you think they do and there will be some people out there hoping it fails.

Kate: Yeah, well, they're not the people. Don't listen if you're one of those people. Go away. Yeah, so more pressure. Obviously, money is less of an issue, which you kind of can't help say out loud. I know that you don't particularly love speaking up about money. You're getting much better at saying like, I'm a – what did you say the other day?

Brianne: Why do you want me to say this again?

Kate: Because you told me it was a goal. Go on, proud.

Brianne: I just think when people, particularly women, talk about financial success, it helps other women realise that they can achieve it too. So yes, I am lucky enough to be a multimillionaire. That's right. That doesn't mean though that I'm just throwing everything at Incrediballs. I'm being very – because I've got to look after my family, I've got to look after friends and I do make sure that they are well looked after. That's really important to me. So I'm only putting a certain amount of money into this and if it doesn't work – we will be looking for – potentially we'll be looking for external investment. I'll do that a little bit differently but we will be doing an equity crowdfunding round later this year primarily because I want to pay off more people's mortgages. Once I know the concept is sound, once I know people like the product and once I know that this business has legs, then I will open it up to get some investors and hopefully we can do what we did with Ethique.

Kate: So that's quite interesting because, and yeah, proud of you for saying that, it definitely inspires people. Like when I heard you say that on the YouTube channel, I was like, this is awesome. Obviously everyone knows it, it's just whether you say it out loud or not, right? And if you couldn't say it, then we'd be wondering where the money went.

Brianne: Lots of animals. Horses.

Kate: That's what happens, guys. She just donates to any animal on the street. But no, it's really nice to hear out loud. It is very inspiring and it does do good. There's girls that invest, there's other people, the curve, they're talking about it and we need that. We did not have that 10 years ago. So, you mentioned there that you wanted to still support people and let them invest because that is another question actually that I get asked and I know you do. And I love how you're doing that almost with the pressure off. Like you get the opportunity unlike other people doing their first crowdfund because they're desperate, you're doing it on the other side. So that must feel good.

Brianne: It is. Crowdfunding is so cool. I love it and I recommend it for so many of the businesses I work with. And you'll start to see that more and more. But I have not forgotten how terrifying it is too.

Kate: And sometimes we need a bit of stress.

Brianne: Yeah, more stress. It's good for you.

Kate: Also, I don't think it would be in your nature. It just isn't right to put all your money into Incrediballs like it still needs to make money. Do you know what I mean? It can't change you starting a new business, no matter your status. It can't actually change the way you view, I'm gonna put an X amount, you still need to make money back, otherwise why do it? It's not a business.

Brianne: It's an incredibly expensive endeavor so far because just the emo queue of making tablets, R&D into a new development, the packaging, the travel, and all that stuff has been incredibly, eye-wateringly expensive. We added it up the other day actually, and it's more than I anticipated, but that's okay, because I truly believe in it. I believe it's what the industry needs.

Kate: Yeah, and we know that the industry leaders at the moment, it's just such a small group. They need a, what do you call it? A disruption. They need a shakala.

Brianne: A shake-up. A shake-up. It's got a pun to it, sort of.

Kate: And Insprie has officially launched. Inspri has been supporting Business But Better since its creation and like you said earlier, that's working with not the Business But Better stage but the next stage up. What is it revenue wise for that?

Brianne: About 1 to 10 mil.

Kate: Yeah. And where did the name Insprie come from and how do you feel about it?

Brianne: I hate it but I don't think my business partner is far away from that either. We needed a word, we could get the dot com to be perfectly honest. It's a little bit related to the word inspire, which is also sort of the problem. It's a word. I just don't think business names matter that much overly. They become a problem when people can't say them or don't want to say them because they feel embarrassed for saying them wrong or they can't spell them.

Kate: See, isn't it nice to be able to be out, like I love how you can say out loud, like you're just, you're not fake about that. Like you're just, I don't love it. And it had a different name and it's changed. And so it's nice to see that, yeah, to be open about that. So who is out there right now listening to this podcast and what type of situation are they in that describes the perfect Insprie candidate that you want to contact you via Insprie's website?

Brianne: A product company who has either, they're either solving a social or environmental problem through business. They don't have a wasteful product for the sake of it. So it's another thing, even if you are solving a problem by selling something else, which a lot of companies do, I'm not interested, by selling something that makes the problem worse. And I equate this to a lot of zoos, for example, will sell stuff toys. And it just, I understand they need the income, but sell things like, if I went to something like that, I'd want books, I want stuff I can carry on the educational journey with, not, I get that stuffed toys are an important form of income for them.

Kate: Like buy this $5 stuffed toy and we give $1 to conservation but we've just put a product -

Yeah, but they're directly destroying the environment by producing the teddy bear and probably indentured labour. It's arse backwards the way we think about the supply chain. You do not make all this money by exploiting people and planet and then give a little bit of it back to try and undo some of the damage you did. It's arse backwards. Let’s just not do the damage in the first place. So a product business that is doing good as well as has a good product that is ideally a bit different. So we're working with quite a few at the moment and they're all very interesting. And people who have ambition, wanna scale it and are in it for the fun, but in it for the hard work.

Kate: You know, I'd add something to that. You love working with people who are not afraid to take on feedback, action it, or argue it, and argue it, like I'm saying this from the best possible place, is you don't mind someone saying to you, and we've had these chats, like, I'll do it this way, I'll do it this way, and then you come to some kind of compromise, like, but then I love working with you because I'm flexible enough to take on your feedback that I'll edit. And if you don't have that type of relationship, no matter how much mentoring, how much investment you give someone, it can't work long term, right?

Brianne: Not every mentor works for everybody, right? You need someone that you can form a relationship with. And to me, it needs to be someone who isn't just going to be a yes person. I want someone to think for themselves and I want someone to take on advice and be like, that doesn't fit with what I want to do, so I'm going to say no to that bit, but I'll like this bit. Or they'll have a good debate with you. That's the key is to have open communication.

Kate: Like a positive debate.

Brianne: Yeah, if you're going to scream at another one across the table to stop it, I'm not going to scream back at you. But that's not how it works.

Kate: Yeah, I love that. And I've definitely found it's very easy to spot. It's honestly like picking a therapist, you know, or picking, in my world, a wedding celebrant. A lot of people meet the first one and they feel, if you're not confrontational, you feel like you must just have to go with that person.

Brianne: I totally do that. She's great, don't get me wrong, but I'd totally agree.

Kate: Yes, take my advice. I'm the expert in this area. One point to me, but no, I think it is nice to have the power and the knowledge to be like, this isn't working for me or it's not working for the mentor. Let's break up, you know, more early on than dragging it out as well.

Brianne: And neither party should take that personally.

Kate: No, no, no, not at all. From a Business But Better perspective, and an inspired perspective actually, what is it gonna take for New Zealand to stop separating businesses and social enterprises when they're being referenced, like when you're referencing an organisation, when all of them, all businesses, all operations should be working with the triple bottom line in mind, people, planet, and profit, because right now I feel like it's like a gold star or a badge of honour to say you're a social enterprise and then everyone else whose business as usual is like essentially saying, “we're not good, we're shit.” So what are we going to have to do to make business? You know, do you know what I mean?

Brianne: Yeah. So are you referring to the fact I don't like the term social enterprise because I think that's, that should just be business and that the businesses that operate more exploitatively should just be bad business.

Kate: Yeah.

Brianne: Well, there's kind of, if you like, there's two groups of, let's say, better businesses. There's businesses that are trying to do good through being a business. So that is your likes of Attiq. It's Incredibles. It's Spratt. It's businesses who are commercial enterprises first and foremost, but they measure profit, planet, and people at the same level, but they are commercially sustainable and their founders and businesspeople are aware of that and work towards ensuring it's financially sustainable. Then you've got social enterprises, right, which are more like a charity model but they're trying to be a little bit more financially sustainable, but often – this is going to sound horrible – you have a lot of founders who are a little bit delusional about what the market wants and you've got these wonderful solutions to problems we face and they're trying to make them into a business without really realising that that isn't something that people are going to pay for. And that is why when you look at some studies on social enterprises, the failure rate is so abysmal is because they're not really businesses in the first place and they should never have been counted as such. They were non-profits and there is nothing wrong with a non-profit. But ideally, in my mind, as a non-profit, you want to work as much as you can away from being dependent on grants and into the sustainable field, which is difficult. And you see that now, Orana Park’s in the news at the moment, right, because they cannot operate sustainably within their revenue streams. They need council backing, and that is a horrible position to be in. It must be exhausting. The way we change that is by getting exploitative businesses to change, if you like, because social enterprises will sort themselves out week from the chaff. They just will or they won't work. End of story, really, there. And I mean, I'm trying to improve that, to inject a little bit more business into these cause-driven entrepreneurs but to change the other side of things is you're just going to have to prove to big businesses that consumers want better and you are seeing that change. You're even seeing Unilever start to make – Unilever are actually doing quite well but starting to make moves into being better for sort of as much as possible. They're obviously doing a lot of things wrong. I'm not giving them a gold star but they are trying and it's hard to move a big ship or return a big ship like that. But also still a lot of big businesses are full of shit.

Kate: Yeah, that's right. And I hope by the time that my sons are 30 years old and they're shopping it's not like, this is a good business and this is a bad business or this is one that has not changed. I'd love to, I don't know, talk to me in 20 years, but I'd love to see that that has developed where it's like almost less segregated.

Brianne: Where we’re less tolerant of bullshit and big coorporates.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah, quick fire questions. Okay. You talk really slow naturally, so please speed up. When did you first call yourself an entrepreneur? Like that word.

Brianne: Ooh, I don't know, probably four or five years into the etiquette journey. I never felt I was worthy of the title. Not that it's a fancy title, I just didn't feel it.

Kate: How many Ethique soap and shampoo bars are in your shower right now?

Brianne: Actually I don't think there are any.

Kate: Okay, what do you use?

Brianne: I've just been trialling some sort of other New Zealand brands of bars.

Kate: Ok cool. There is a dinner for eight people. You're there, your business partner Tristan is there, I’m there because someone has to talk to talk to people, network on your behalf.

Brianne: I can be gregarious when I want to be, just for carrying off.

Kate: Your mum is there. Okay. She'll be talking. Yeah, yeah. Janine and I will be having wines in the corner with bloody champagne with blackcurrant. Oh, blackcurrant Incrediballs in it. Guys, shh. I feel amazing.

Brianne: It's not a secret, let's be honest.

Kte: Okay, good. But we'll be having that. That's actually the drink of choice. They're sponsoring the event, clearly. You need to pick four more people currently alive to join us at a beautiful wee dinner party.

Brianne: What is the point of a dinner party? Who is coming?

Kate: Just people who inspire you. Okay. And two, that you just want to meet them. You can't know them already, because...

Brianne: This is hard, because how many people do I want to meet? I think Brian, Professor Brian Cox would be really interesting. He comes to mind simply because we were talking about him yesterday, right?

Kate: What does he do?

Brianne: He's a physicist who just talks about the wonder of the universe and why it all works and he's a redonkulously clever, just a very interesting and very charismatic guy.

Kate: Brian, if you hear this, my name is @kateradx and I'd love to have you on the podcast. Please hit me up on Instagram. Someone pass that on to Brian. It's New Zealand. I'm sure we'll make it work.

Brianne: Yeah, that is the good thing about living here, isn't it? Everyone knows everybody.

Kate: The good and the bad.

Brianne: Yeah, yeah.

Kate: Three more.

Brianne: Mitty, obviously. Again, we talked about her. She's a basically invented conservation photographer in many, many respects. Yeah, that's cool. This is difficult.

Kate: No David Attenborough?

Brianne: Of course David Attenborough! How the fuck did I forget him? I adore him. He's getting older. Yes. Incredibly depressing.

Kate: I know, I thought we could shout him dinner.

Brianne: Yes, do you go my podcast?

Kate: Yes, David also hit me up. @kateradx. God, I hope that works. Please someone um and one more get totally think international. Yeah big picture

Brianne: You know a couple years ago would have said Elon Musk. But now he's tended for a right-wing lunatic and I couldn't be least interested. Never met you heroes. Well, that's true. Well, they're here as I have me I've always been like now before they turn into the villain.

Kate: What about Robert Irwin? I've met him. I love him. He's too young for me, which is very depressing, but I love him nonetheless.. Chris Hemsworth! He inspires me in a different way.

Kate: We know Jeanette would be chatting with him.

Brianne: Oh no, she'd be away at somewhere else.

Kate: Okay, I'll take Jeanette for a wander. Brianne and Chris will fall in love.

Brianne: He’s married and I couldn't do that to his wife. She's lovely. But, you know, I just, you know, I just think, I actually genuinely think he's a funny guy. Yeah. I think he'd be funny to know.

Kate: We do need some humour at the table.

Brianne: And his daughter rides horses. Yeah, I didn't know that.

Brianne: You're honestly getting bang for your buck here, guys, because when Chris Hemsworth, like, that's...

Brianne: Do you think he’d come on the podcast? I would not hold it together. There was that time I met a male model in the States-

Kate: She'd go red.

Brianne: I did go red. I forgot how to breathe and I forgot my own name and then I forgot how to talk and my other business partner who was there at the time, she had to do it for me. It was hideous. I wanted to die.

Kate: What's your name? Yeah. I can picture it.

Brianne: Yeah, it was just awful. I can picture it. Because he was a model who was interested in ocean conservation. He was like the perfect human.

Kate: Yeah, these are the things Brianne’s passionate about, right? This is what gets her up in the morning. We've got sustainability. We've got business. We've got oceans. We've got Christine's top list on a show that she accidentally watched with her dad.

Brianne: Dad was really interested in the content. Although I think he did say to me, he's going to kill me. He did say, you know, even I, as a straight man, can understand if I was going to go gay for anybody, it'd be him.

Kate: Oh my God, I love that. Yep. It's a pure man. Awkward that I forgot to invite Martin to the dinner.

Brianne: I know, I thought that too. I should go tell him. Oh, sorry.

Kate: I'm gonna lose a friend. What type of person, and I obviously, because you've trained me so well, recognize that this is not your target market, is the person that would be the most difficult, like what type of person, to convince him to purchase Incredibles? Somebody who doesn't see the point.

Brianne: Somebody who doesn't, because there is a little bit of giving something up, right? Because it is a lot more convenient to go and buy a can because you immediately just pop the tab, drink, done, or open the bottle, open the top and you've got a bottle of, I don't know, Coke or whatever, right? So there is an element of you are giving slightly a little bit of convenience up. So someone who doesn't care about the point, doesn't care about the environment is going to be one of the hardest people to convince. Which is why we also have a health benefit. But those are not my target, and I'm not gonna bother trying to convince them otherwise.

Kate: See guys, I learned that from her. At the very start of RAD, I remember being like, how are we gonna pick, like how are we gonna find the worst event organizers and make them better and Brianne said you don't do that. You go for the low-hanging fruit, right? But I really needed, it's like the supply chain. It's just backwards and sideways in your head until someone says it, and it's so obvious. Do it, of course you do. You take the ones who care a little bit and then show them what to do to care and then put it in place.

Brianne: That's how Ethique grew, right? So everybody who tried it were people who were naturally interested in the environment and wanted to lessen their plastic bottle usage. They told their friends who were less so, told their friend how much they loved it and their friends tried it because they loved good shampoo. That's how you convince people who don't care.

Kate: I remember getting one of the Ethique bars from my mother-in-law for my 18th birthday. I don't know, I was just under 20. Yeah, does that line up?

Brianne: Yeah, 12 years old this year, I think.

Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It had just come out. It was at the Tannery, and it was like, I got it, and I was like, what do you do with this? And I didn't use it for a while, and then once I did, I got into it, but I was not sustainability-minded. I just got it as a gift, right? Like, so yeah, you're giving up the bottle in the current practice that you've been doing for 20 years. You have to go back to uni tomorrow because I'm the boss. What are you studying?

Brianne: Oh, it'd be a PhD because that's what I eventually want. And I am going to, oh, I don't know if I do microbiology or marine biology. Maybe marine microbiology. I'd be a really good supervillain, like cooking up superbugs. I'm not gonna release them guys. I just find it fascinating. Dr. Waste, new COVID edition, 2024.

I would do something way more interesting than COVID because as viruses go, I found COVID boring, but I wouldn't release it. Obviously, I don't want people to die. I just find viruses fascinating, which I think people when I was a kid found unnerving. But then I also want to go and study everything under the oceans. And I have a thing about anacondas. I really want to go and hang out with an anaconda. I appreciate that, and that might be quite short.

Kate: Nicki Minaj also quite liked anacondas.

Brianne: That is unfortunate, she has ruined that word for most people.

Kate: Why did that first come to mind? Please fix that, Dr. West studies anaconda marine microbiology.

Brianne: Well, they just found evidence of the largest snake that ever lived, right? So you've heard of Titanoboa, which is just like four times bigger than an anaconda. And they found something bigger. It's a cool name, right, Titanoboa. They found something bigger than that that used to, oh shit, somewhere in I think Southeast Asia, I've actually forgotten where they found it. That's terrible. I say forgotten, but I actually didn't read the article because I just read the headline because that's how I read the news.

Kate: That's where all the best information comes from.

Brianne: Yeah, and not click-baity bullshit at all.

Kate: The click-bait hook, yes.

Kate: Your favourite book that you'd read more than twice.

Brianne: The Stand. The Stand. Oh my god, everybody should read it, it's brilliant. Stephen King about a virus, okay, scene to scene, that does work out 99.99% of the world and it's just fascinating. It's got a religious element to it, I'm not personally religious, but it's still interesting nonetheless. Fascinating. I think he's a good writer of what would really happen in people's minds at the time.

Kate: Right, okay. Zombie apocalypse.

Brianne: Not a zombie, no. No, everyone just dies horribly. Happy birthday, Christ. I honestly started, I started to read it on like maybe, I think March 2020. I was like, good, this is just the best timing.

Kate: This would never happen! And because she only reads the headlines of news, she's reading this book, right, and then the headline comes up, thousands dead from new virus. And then she just sees that and that and she puts in her head, well, we're fucked.

Brianne: Well, COVID was an interesting time, right? So I took my parents to New York and England for a Christmas holiday in 2019. My mom was so ill in New York, so ill, that we were wandering around in minus 14 degrees weather and she was boiling. She was so unwell. And I know there's hundreds of things that it could be, but I always like to mention she's patient X. Not in a good way, because it's not a good thing obviously, but it's interesting. But also when we were travelling, I don't know, February, January, business partner and I, we noticed people in masks and we started to notice more and more before we started seeing headlines. And so we probably started to pay attention a little bit earlier than most people. I thought it was just going to be nothing and no big deal because there'd been obviously quite a few scares like SARS and so on. But Tristan took it quite seriously from day one. He's actually one of the, he's the biggest reason that Ethique did not really have too many problems through COVID.

Kate: Like, because he prepared you? Kind of pre-planned?

Brianne: Yeah, he did. Yeah, he's really good.

Kate: Well, that's great.

Brianne: Very handy. Because I wouldn't have planned. Let's be honest, I don't plan shit.

Kate: Well, she actually does quite a lot. But I love that he preempted, you need someone in your life who knows the time, like, to pull the trigger, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, when it's actually serious and when it's like, you might get bird flu. We've been telling you this for 10 years. Get your shot  or whatever. Okay. Guilty pleasures. This is a wee list that you'd never admit in an interview. Don't worry, no one's listening. (I hope you're all listening.) Okay. Favorite book. Like, guilty pleasure. Like, one you read and you're like, why? Like, I'm not telling anyone I read that.

Brianne: I don't know, probably some trash romance novel. Sometimes you need like airplane reading, right? Where you don't actually have to concentrate.

Brianne: We're not judging, we're just getting to know you.

Brianne: I used to read all the Trixie Belden series. I don't think they were big and new. Oh, they were, they were. Yeah, going by your face. I don't read them now. But I do remember them.

Kate: Oh my God, my auntie got me them.

Brianne: And all like the boarding school things?

Kate: Oh, Famous Five?

Brianne: They were a big thing, but they're not really guilty pleasures because I think they're something every kid should read. I don't know. Maybe some trashy romance something.

Brianne: No, it's not, I know what it is. Oh, okay. It's terrible. It's so much worse. It's everything that Clive Cussler's ever written. Except in the early books where he's a racist, sexist piece of shit. He is, and I will... he's dead now. I've never heard of him.

Brianne: Yeah, he writes primarily adventure novels, and I love adventure novels.

Kate: Did you used to like those pick your...

Brianne: No, I hate them. Hate them. Hate them. I used to have to have all of the tabs open so that I wouldn't die. So that I'd write, that was a bad decision, go back to where I was. No, hate that. Hate.

Kate: And she says she doesn't preempt. She definitely preempts. She organises to avoid.

Brianne: Fine, that may be the one and only example.

Kate: Whereas I'm like, because they have them on Netflix now, so me and the kids do it, so you get to pick apart. Oh, that's clever. Yeah, we watch Captain Underpants.

Brianne: That sounds brilliant. Never heard of that.

Kate: Have you not? Oh, it used to be a comic book when I was a kid and now the boys watch it and we're like, it's like, quick, bunk school or go and put a pin on your teacher's seat. And we're like, and it's really nice to see their morals and ethics come out early, right? Like one of my children is like, put the pin on the seat and the other one's like, let me guess which one that is. And the other one's like, I would never skip class. That would be very naughty.

Brianne: How are they so different? You are an interesting argument for nature versus nurture.

Kate: Yeah.

Brianne: Because I always thought it was mostly nurture, but I tell you.

Kate: I have no control.

Brianne: So interesting.

Kate: I pretend. I'm like, you know, I'm like, I'm a mom.

Brianne: Yes, I am the grown up. I know what's going on.

Kate: It's fine. I have as much control over them as you do over your Elon Musk or your wild chickens that show up spontaneously. Hopefully more. What about food you would eat that you wouldn't necessarily broadcast? What's like a guilty pleasure to food? You're having a sad day.

Brianne: Oh my God. You get rice bubbles or cornflakes and you mix them in melted chocolate and then you just eat it out of the bowl before it sets.

Kate: Oh my God. Okay, so I don't know if people know this, but Breanne actually somehow, she's like a really good cook and baker, but she lies to us all. Tells us that like this is.

Brianne: I don't like doing it.

Kate: Spoiler alert, if you tell someone you're good at something, they make you do it. So just say you're a real shit from the get-go. But anyway, she made Tub, obviously, her firstly business, well, second business, and then has created other yummy, delicious recipes she's shown me. And then you just throw in that, like rice but great.

Brianne: Yeah, but that's not really a recipe so much as just definitely a lazy girl's way to eat a rice crispy slice thing.

Kate: No, but I love that.

Brianne: And then you feel really ill because you eat like half of it. It's worth it.

Kate: Next travel location, not yet booked?

Brianne: Costa Rica, hopefully.

Kate: Why?

Brianne: Always wanted to go there. Frog Central, wildlife, biodiversity, Zambia, Namibia. Yeah, anywhere that's got... I want to travel throughout South America, like everywhere, really. I'd love to go to Nicaragua, but travel insurance isn't stoked about that because it's a little bit of gang warfare going on there. Unfortunately, it's true of a few places at the moment.

Kate: Yeah, maybe we avoid that for just a mini.

Brianne: They have bullsharks in their lake. You know what I'm talking about, bull sharks in the other podcast.

Kate: Guys, go to the Green Podcast. They've just heard about sharks, the Earth Day one.

Brianne: Which is not at all about Earth Day.

Kate: Yeah, mate, it's about sharks. But I'd rather run into a bull shark than a bloody, what's it called, goblin shark. Please Google both of those. Delicious. Oh, not delicious to eat, delicious looking.

Brianne: Kind of the opposite of what we were saying.

Kate: Hopefully if you know my sense of humour, or don't know it, you can get it.

Brianne: People get mad at me when I say, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. I'm not saying eat elephants. I really think that should be obvious and whatever. Yeah.

Kate: Is that your favorite quote, actually?

Brianne: I think it breaks things down nicely

Kate: Yeah, mine is you're either earning learning or enjoying and if you're not doing one of those, what are you doing on? Action kills anxiety. Yeah, I love that. It's true because if I'm anxious I'm like, oh what action can I take you really helped with that? Actually the what action can you take to get rid of it or write a list and then like circle the facts? What are all the things you're nervous about this brand, because Brianne has all these amazing tips and tricks.

Brianne: I learned them from other amazing people

Kate: I know but that's that's how it happens. You pass it on you write down all the things You're anxious about you circle the facts or you write the action that you can complete the next day to get over it All right, when did you first die you'll hear read and why when did I first time I hear it?

Brianne: I don't know. I feel like it was a teenager

Kate: Probably it was like you're still not though like if someone everyone's got a thing where they're like, do you know Brianne West? She has red hair or a pink blazer. That's how I'd describe you. I'd be like, she wears red lipstick or wears a pink blazer or something. Yeah, why and when? Was there any thought behind that, like from a branding perspective?

Brianne: No, my mum's always had red hair.

Kate: True.

Brianne: And I guess you mean like your parents to some degree? I remember I came home one day and I said to mum, look, I'm in love with this boy and I think you'll like me more if I was mysterious I need to dye my hair black and she's like okay, and I went through a period of wearing my black lace. Yeah, I don't know what the fuck was going on. It's a weird 16 year old guys.

Kate: Guys, we don't change our looks and our personalities for men now. We don't encourage this anymore. That's such a teenage thing to do.

Brianne: Yeah, or an early 20s thing to do.

Kate: We've got two more questions. I've known you for one year now, and what can you tell me about you that will surprise me?

Brianne: I don't know. I tell everybody everything. Oh, the bone tremor. You know about the bone tremor, though. I had a bone tumor when I was a kid. That's, well, not a kid. I was 15. All the kids at school were really mean to me about it.

Kate: Really?

Brianne: Yeah. Because I used to take painkillers every day, all day, before they found it.

Kate: Well, obviously. You have a tumor.

Brianne: We didn't know I had a bone tumor at that point, so they used to call me a drug addict. Yeah, kids are great, really big fan. And when I say kids, again, 15, 16, 17, 18.

Kate: Yeah, that's a big deal though. That's like a big transformational part of your life.

Brianne: Well, the doctors didn't believe me either, so they put me on antidepressants for a while, until one day they were like, you know what, fine, just shut her up and put her on an MRI. Because they did X-rays and they didn't find anything. Of course, yeah. And when they put me in an MRI, they were like “oh, there it is.”

Kate: “Sorry we've missed that for so long and everyone's calling you a drug addict.” Yeah, I think that I did kind of know that, but that definitely surprises me that people like bullied you for it and the perception that that has been you were legit in pain. And I always think this about having, I've had 14 surgeries for endometriosis and a hysterectomy, right, and I'm always like, if this was to do with the guys’ bits you would have had this summed up when they were 12 years old, but me, I'm in every eight months, you know, and I can't believe how women get left in the dark or you get kind of gaslit by the medical system. That's wild.

Brianne: Oh yes.

Kate: All right, last question. Timer ready. Thanks for listening, if you have hung in there. You have one minute to name all of the animals at your house. Ready, set, go.

Brianne: Patch, not Patch, Humphrey and Archimedes. Popcorn and Jack. The chickens don't have names. So all of the chickens. All of the frogs and all of the fish, they don't have names.

Kate: I thought they were the Klarkdashians.

Brianne: Oh, sorry, that's right, they are the Klykdashians. You're right, sorry, the Klykdashians and Bessie. Bessie's not part of the Klukdashians. We've got Goji 1 and Goji 2. I haven't technically named them because I don't know what to name them because they don't suit anything.

Kate: Okay, we're naming them by the end of today.

Brianne: Then you've got Sputnik the tortoise, you've got BC the bearded dragon, and that's it.

Kate: Okay, well done, 30 seconds. And that is it. Thank you for sharing some personal, professional, and lazy girl's guide for sustainability with us because we are the lazy ones and we need a book that sums up your...

Brianne: I'm writing it. I'm on it. That's a complete lie, but I have definitely thought about it. I've thought about writing it.

Kate: What month will that be out? What year?

Brianne: April 2028.

Kate: Cool. She'll see you next year in April. We'll be talking the 38-year-old special and we'll be reading incepts from her book on the podcast.

Brianne: It is the goal to start writing it properly, I promise.

Kate: Thank you for listening. Have a great week and I'll hand you back to your real owner now. You've been a great podcast audience. Bye!

Brianne: Bye!

And there you go. I hope you learned something and realised that being green isn't about everything in your pantry matching with those silly glass jars or living in a commune. If that's your jam, fabulous. But sustainability at its heart is just using what you need. If you enjoyed this episode please don't keep it to yourself and feel free to drop me a rating and hit the subscribe button. please don't keep it to yourself and feel free to drop me a rating and hit the subscribe button. Kia ora and I'll see you next week.

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