How can we travel more sustainable, more ethically? Jessica from Lonely Planet gives us the rundown.

If you’re like me, you might have constantly conflicting feelings about travel. On one hand I can’t help but feel a little bit guilty about all the associated impacts. But of course, on the other hand there are the benefits of that travel for both the traveler and they places they go to.

This usually results in a very confused conscience. So to help clear things up a little, maybe, today I am going to be talking about how to travel sustainably, or as I prefer to call it, travel fairly.

To help me unpack all of this I am joined by Jessica Lockhart from Lonely Planet. Jessica is one of their authors and her specific focus is on how to make travel fairer and kinder to ensure it gives back to those it should.

She is an award winning journalist, has contributed to loads of books on travel and has a specific interest in science and conservation.

More about Jess and Lonely Planet:

If you want to look up the article Jessica wrote about sustainable/ethical travel you can find it here: https://www.vergemagazine.com/articles/beyond-the-guidebook/2677-essential-guide-to-responsible-ethical-travel.html

For more on Jess you can find her online here: https://www.instagram.com/wynnelockhart/?hl=en

‍The lonely planet site for their sustainable handbook is here: https://shop.lonelyplanet.com/en-au/products/the-sustainable-travel-handbook

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Transcript:

Brianne: Kia ora kaitiaki and welcome to Now That's What I Call Green. I'm your host, Brianne West, an environmentalist and entrepreneur trying to get you as excited about our planet as I am. I'm all about creating a scientific approach to making the world a better place without the judgment and making it fun. And of course, we will be chatting about some of the most amazing creatures we share our planet with. So if you are looking to navigate through everything green or not so green, you have come to the right place.

Brianne: Kia ora and welcome back, Kaitiaki. Okay, who loves travelling but feels a little bit of guilt about all the associated impacts, but then also thinks about the benefits of that travel for both the traveller and the places you go to, and then you get all tied up in knots and you just end up feeling confused and guilty? Yeah, me too. So today we're talking about how to travel sustainably or how I prefer to call it, travel fairly. Because no, travel isn't by definition sustainable by the true meaning of sustainability, but it has net positives.

Brianne: And by that I mean it does more good than bad. And of course, whether you do more good than bad depends on the decisions you make. So to help navigate this episode, I'm very excited to introduce our guest today. We have Jessica Lockhart from Lonely Planet. You know, Lonely Planet, the travel guide that has published over 150 million books. Yeah.

Brianne: Jessica is one of the authors and has a specific focus on how to make travel fairer and kinder to ensure that it gives back to those it should. She is an award-winning journalist, has contributed to loads of books on travel, and has a specific interest in science and conservation.

Brianne: Welcome, Jessica!

Jessica: Kia ora. How are you doing today?

Brianne: It's so good to have you. Thank you so much for joining and on such short notice.

Jessica: Yeah, that's no worries.

Brianne: Big question first. What does sustainable or fair travelling mean to you?

Jessica: So for me, I like the use of the word fair travel. For me, the phrase that I like to use, and there's a lot of buzzwords out there, is I prefer the phrase ethical travel. And for me, what ethical travel encompasses is not just the environmental sustainability of the trips that we're taking, but it's also taking into consideration how we're affecting the cultures of places that we're visiting, how we're supporting communities when we travel, and it's also about taking a close look at diversity and inclusion as well in travel. I think that's something that's really critical at this moment in time. And at Lonely Planet, it's something that we embed into everything that we do at the moment. So we're looking very, very carefully at making sure that, for example, we're promoting accessible travel experiences.

Brianne: So this is a little bit what Aotearoa is trying to achieve with the Tiaki Promise, right? That all our tourists who come into the country say that they will help us uphold. Is that what you're sort of talking about?

Jessica: 100%. So, and for those not familiar with the Tiaki Promise, in 2018, right before the pandemic, there were a number of countries that launched these tourism pledges, New Zealand being amongst them. The Tiaki Promise is a really great one. Basically, there's a lot of different things that tourists are agreeing to when they come into the country, but it basically means to care for people, place and culture. So those are really the key tenets of this promise that people are making. And it's a really interesting one too. And I think that New Zealand is doing a really, really great job. And a lot of people worldwide and globally do see New Zealand as the leader in what's called regenerative tourism. And the reason why is basically regenerative tourism is, and you're going to have to excuse my Canadian accent, is Te Reo Maori. It really is that concept. And basically what's happening at the moment, especially in New Zealand, is that the government has even pledged that they're going to be moving towards a regenerative tourism model in terms of everything that they're promoting. And last year, they launched their regenerative tourism award. So that was really exciting as well.

Brianne: People listening are going to assume we're going to talk about carbon footprints and flying. So I just want to get that out of the way first because that's what comes to mind when you think about sustainable travel. What do you think about flying? What do you think about carbon offsets in general? Again, another big question for you.

Jessica: Oh my goodness, that is the biggest question and honestly we could probably do an entire podcast on this just about carbon offsetting. It's very complex, it can get highly scientific, there's a lot of socio-economics and things that are at play with the carbon offsetting. In short, I will say about carbon offsetting is that there are good projects, there are bad projects, you need to do your research. So there's a lot of documented problems with carbon offsetting. For example, projects where trees are planted but then they're cut down a year later. And I think what a lot of people don't understand about carbon is that trees, for example, only temporarily store that carbon. So when there's a forest fire or when those trees are torn down, the carbon gets re-released back into the atmosphere. For myself personally, I subscribe to a monthly subscription program for a carbon credit program called Tomorrow's Air. And what they're actually investing in at the moment is permanent carbon storage. So basically it's carbon storage under the ground. The science is still being developed about it. Is it the most responsible or ethical way to deal with carbon offsetting? I still don't know. I don't think anybody knows at this point. But it's great to see that there's a lot of research and development underway and different ways of approaching that.

Brianne: Yeah, so that's carbon capture tech, which is definitely still in early phases. We do something very similar. We partner with a company called Ecology with an I or another one is Only.One who do very similar things. So they do tree planting, but that's not part of your carbon offsets because trees are no longer considered carbon offsets, right? Or they shouldn't be. And something else I think people would consider when they are flying and they do want to think about this, other than a monthly subscription, which I think is a fabulous idea, don't use the offsets provided by the airlines because they tend to be the least vetted. Generally speaking, right?

Jessica: I would generally agree with you that carbon offsetting provided by the airlines has it's not your best option if you're going to invest in carbon offsetting you really need to sit down and do your research about what it is that you'd like to offset by doing.

Brianne: Yeah, totally agree. I have another loaded question for you I promise this is probably the the biggest one. Shouldn't we just stop traveling? Because isn't that by definition more sustainable? This is where we get into the good stuff.

Jessica: I think that the answer to your question is if we're only talking about sustainability in terms of environmental sustainability, yeah, maybe we should consider that. But we're not talking about sustainability in that way anymore. We're not talking about ethical travel in that way anymore. It's really an all-encompassing thing. And ultimately, travel has the capacity to be the single greatest distributor of global wealth in the world. So for us to say that we're not going to travel, there's going to be negative ripple effects of that as well. As an expat who lives overseas and far away from my family, I also know that it's not possible to just say I'm not going to go on a plane. That's just not a realistic thing in our global world.

Brianne: And that is the critical piece, is putting aside all of the benefits to economies and communities around the world, is it's not realistic to say that people are going to suddenly stop traveling. It's like saying not everybody's going to stop eating meat. We have to operate within the realms of reality. I'm a big believer that if all businesses change their supply chains to actually pay people a fair wage, which is the bare minimum, that would change the world, right? That would absolutely change the world in every way we consider. And I'm prepared to bet that you probably feel the same way around community-based tourism. For those who have never heard of this idea before, what is it and how does it work?

Jessica: So with the community-based tourism, basically it's the idea that everything is being locally owned and operated by the community. The tourism is being instigated by the community. The profits are staying in the community. And that's a really, really critical piece of this whole puzzle. It's an old statistic at this point, but I think it's one that's still relatively accurate, which has to do with, I can't remember the term, but basically economic need for tourism. So when you go to stay at, say, an all-inclusive resort or when you get on a cruise ship, you know, for every $100 you spend, only $1 is staying in the community. So by choosing to stay with local businesses, family-owned businesses, you're putting your money into the hands of those locals.

Brianne: Yeah, and that makes all the difference. I mean, I've always felt really awkward. Those tours where you can spend a day with a community, for example, in the South Pacific, it feels like you're watching people as some kind of bizarre entertainment and it's totally exploitative and really white-savioury, for lack of a better term. And I'm sure there are some good examples out there, though. have any standout examples of community tourism projects that you've actually seen?

Jessica: I love this question and I love this question because I do think that some of the best examples are in Aotearoa. One of my absolute favourites and it's someplace that I've written about and visited a number of times myself is Kohutapu Lodge, which is in the Bay of Plenty region. They last year won Tourism New Zealand's inaugural Regenerative Tourism Award. They are really focused on sharing Maori culture with international visitors, but they're doing it in a way that feels really comfortable to them. So that means that if they've got local youth participating, the kids don't necessarily have to wear costumes. It's not something that they're not putting on a show. They're showing people what they call real people tourism. They're bringing people into their community. They're exchanging culture with these international visitors. I think it's a really amazing model for tourism.

Brianne: Yeah, how all tourism should be. It is how it is. And the idea of dressing up kids for tourist benefit is rather abhorrent, isn't it? As travellers or tourists, we do want to help the places that we go, but it is hard to know what's right, what's wrong. So how do we do that? How do we make sure that our money and our efforts actually help. The obvious ones are supporting locally owned operations, ensuring that you're paying a fair price as much as you can, but what else are some really concrete steps people can do?

Jessica: This is one of the questions on your list that I was like, “shoot, I wish I had more time to sit down and write down all my answers to these questions!”

Brianne: I am going to point to your spectacular article you linked to me. I think that's absolutely brilliant. We will be showing people that article. So go and have a look in the show notes because Jessica has written a fab article that will help you, give you a baseline about this too.

Jessica: Yeah, and I think that the thing is that you can, with the answer to that question, you know, it starts from the moment that you book your trip and doing that research beforehand to figure out, again, where is your money going to be going? What are you supporting? What kind of cultural exchange are you going to be getting if that's the primary objective of your trip. Because let's be honest, not everybody wants to go on holiday and maybe participate in cultural tour after cultural tour. They might just want to go and lay on a beach. And you know something? That is totally fine. But it is doing that research and making sure that as much of the money that you're spending is staying in the local community. But there's a number of other small steps that you can take. And it's everything from making sure that you keep on practicing those things that you do in your everyday life or that I hope you do in your everyday life. Like I always travel with my tote bag because, quite frankly, it doesn't take up any room in my luggage. I always travel with a keep cup. I always travel with a water bottle. You can get really great portable water bottles that have built-in water filters if you're worried about the quality of the water in the place that you're visiting. There are so many small steps that you can take along the way that honestly don't take that much time. They don't take that much investment. They are basically just carrying those habits and these

practices that you have in your everyday life through to holiday. And unfortunately, I do think that there is a thing where people say, oh, I'm on holiday. I don't have to worry about these things. And no, you shouldn't have to worry about them necessarily. But that doesn't mean that you should just throw your brain off.

Brianne: No, you should be responsible regardless. And it's just not hard to implement things like tote bags and reusable cups into your life, right? It becomes a habit like anything else if you prioritise it. What should people not do? And I ask this and this is sort of big picture, but some countries, some indigenous people from certain countries have specifically asked people to stop going there. And Hawaii is my example there because tourism is doing so much damage and there is so much inequity there. It's very sad. So how do you vet a destination and what other red flags do you look for?

Jessica: This is also another loaded question. It's one that's highly contentious in the industry. And it's honestly, I think the thing that's really interesting about ethics, always for me personally, is sometimes when we talk about ethics, we think that there's right and wrong. But the thing is, everybody's personal ethics lie along a different boundary, and you have to keep that in mind. So what's comfortable for me, personally, might not be comfortable for you or for somebody else. So one of the things that I always think about, for example, is I'm queer, so my partner is a woman. And that's been a really interesting piece of travel for me, again, talking about that diversity and inclusion piece, because my power and privilege in the world is slightly different than somebody who is in a heterosexual relationship. So there are certain countries that before I visit those countries, I really have to think about their human rights there, how they're treating queer people there. Even within the queer community, really, there's a debate about, for example, whether you should boycott a destination or whether you should not. And it's a really, really complex issue because, you know, I could boycott a destination because, you know, I don't feel comfortable about my money going towards a country that, for example, penalises homosexual people by death. Like, I don't feel comfortable with that. But conversely, there are homosexual people in those countries, and by visiting them, there's an argument that you're providing an example that it can be okay, and it can be giving faith and hope to those people who live in those communities. So, I think that that's just it. It's ethics. There's a lot to consider. There's a lot to think about when it comes to choosing the destinations that we're going to. And it really is just, it's something that's deeply personal. And I think, again, you just need to do your research and figure out what feels right and what feels good to you.

Brianne: And you're dead right. Ethics are grey. So I've done a few philosophy papers and one was particularly on environmental ethics. And I was thinking when you dig deep into why you hold these beliefs and why you hope that other people share them, actually digging deep, it's so complicated because what you consider moral, others do not, and actually their arguments can often be very fair. So, the key takeaway is if you are looking to go to a destination, ensure that what is important to you, ensure that lines up. But also talk to other people, right? Research. There are some countries out there that do not support women. There are a lot of countries out there that do absolutely not support queer people. There is lots and lots of issues around the world. So if you do as much research as you can and then try and align that with your values, that's really the best we can do.

Jessica: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I think that's a good way to summarise how to approach this.

Brianne: Beautiful. Here's a slightly easier one. Aside from things like elephant riding, which we all know by now, I think that is not the thing to do, are there any other much-loved tourist activities that you think should be knocked on the head?

Jessica: Oh gosh, you know something, it's interesting that you bring up elephant riding as an example because I think a lot of the ones for me are things that are animal related. We love animals and I think over time I have become increasingly uncomfortable with some animal attractions, particularly where it concerns animals in the wild. So not animals like an elephant that is a captive elephant, but animals in the wild and interacting with them. I mean, for example, we used to be able to swim with dolphins in the Bay of Islands. There's a reason why that activity is no longer allowed. It's prohibited now. There are certain places in New Zealand where you can still swim with dolphins. There's a lot of research and honestly, DOC does a really, really good job of making sure that those threat holders are meeting the regulations to be able to interact with those wild animals. But I still think that it bears serious consideration about whether we should be doing it or not.

Brianne: Wild animals should be wild.

Jessica: Yeah. I think that the other one, and I think that this is a conversation that a lot of people have been having for a number of years now, is also considering how we're accessing ecologically sensitive areas. So, for instance, and I'm not even talking about getting off track, I'm talking about even just going to some of these ecologically sensitive areas just for your Instagram picture, or posing in a particular spot for an Instagram picture even though you're representing on really sensitive lichens, mosses. One of the other ones that I've seen a lot of on social media, again, has to do with interacting with wild animals, which is things like feeding birds. So I think you really need to think to yourself, am I doing this for the right reasons or am I just doing it for a picture?

Brianne: That is the perfect summary. If you are doing it because you want to experience the incredible, amazing, awe-inspiring world we have, and really a picture is a side consideration, and you know that it's not doing any harm, great. But if you're doing something simply because you want a cute photo….really? maybe rethink. Cruise ships. I don't know about you, but I'm being bombarded by ads for cruise ships at the moment. I assume it's a bit of a resurgence from COVID, right? But they're out there with raisins for me. Now, if anyone's ever heard me talk before about raisins, they will be banned when I become Supreme Overlord. They're not great for the environment, but they are a very popular form of transport, and I appreciate there are good ways and bad ways to do it. What are the environmental ramifications of, say, a bigger cruise ship, and are there better ways to do it?

Jessica: Yeah, so I think that these big mega ships, there's definitely a lot of research reaching the fact that they have really negative environmental, social and even labour law interactions. The biggest cruise ship actually in the world just launched, I believe, in January, Icon of the Seas. It can carry 7,600 passengers, which to me doesn't sound like the best time ever, but hey, each to their own. But I actually just finished writing an article about cruise ships this past week. And one of the things that one of my interviewees sent me, which I thought was really, really interesting, and a really good point that she made, is that cruise ships for a lot of travellers are accessible travel, whether that has to do with what they're financially able to afford, or whether that actually has to do with their mobility issues. And there's a reason why an ageing population does love a cruise ship, it’s because it does support them, it does allow them to have a holiday to explore the world, but do it in a way that feels safe to them, where they're supported, where there are the amenities that make it accessible to them, which is amazing, and I'm never going to look down on that. And what this particular interviewee said to me, and again, this comes back to that idea of “what are ethics?” Because she said to me, you know, you can fly to Africa and take three super sustainable safaris in a year, or you can take one cruise ship vacation every three years, which is worse. And I just thought that that was a really, really interesting point and something that I am digesting at the moment, because I've never been the biggest fan of cruise ships myself. The cruise ship that I recently did wasn't a cruise ship, but it was an expedition vessel that was capable of only carrying 72 passengers, where we were doing citizen science along the way. So I think that's the other thing, is that there's also this really big movement, especially with citizen science, of ways that you can get involved on these cruise ships. Again, though, I think you need to read the fine print. So some of the major cruise ships are now offering kind of for-purpose excursions that you can do from those boats, whether it's citizen science, they're helping to count whales, or whether it's doing beach cleanup. But in my research, I did find with a lot of those shore excursions, which you do have to pay for, it's a lot of marketing, there's not actually a lot of action going on.

Brianne: That is a very good point, that it is an accessible form of travel and yes, you may in fact have less impact if you go on a cruise versus many, many different holidays. And again, ethics is great. It's an interesting consideration. I have a particular bugbear, which is Antarctic treble, and it's grown massively over the last couple of years alone. And I know that there is a study out there that shows that every tourist melts 83 tons of snow and ice due to the black carbon that those ships emit. Now, obviously, scientists are down there. They are doing important work. But tourism doesn't necessarily have a positive for Antarctica. This is also true of other destinations, and it's kind of what we touched on earlier. What do you reckon? Are there just some places in the world, other than Antarctica, that we just shouldn't go?

Jessica: You know, I think part of the reason why I wasn't comfortable answering this question is because I probably do agree with you. But it's a hard one because, ultimately, I would love to visit Antarctica. It's such a difficult one because as somebody who loves to travel, I would absolutely love Antarctica. I would love to do it, but I just don't know. You're right, there's so much research that just points to the things that tourism is doing to Antarctica. I think one of the things that's happened in the last year especially, we've seen, I did an article for the New Zealand Herald about this, is I'm sure you've seen on social media all of the videos on TikTok and things of people crossing the Drake Passage. And you're like, why is my feed suddenly being filled with all of this Antarctica travel? And that's partially because the number of ships going is basically unrestricted. It's just this unrestricted flow of tourism to Antarctica. That's not to say that there aren't any regulations there. So for example, the big mega ships cannot dock there. So it's only the smaller expedition-sized vessels that are actually capable of taking your passengers to shore, which I think is a win. Like there's definitely regulations and things that are going on there to try and preserve that environment. I do anticipate it's something, especially just with the growth of tourism, and the loss even just post pandemic, that we are going to see new regulations come in in the next few years or at least I hope so. I don't know if I want to say it's on a blacklist for me, but I do think that we should be regulating the number of boats going in there. But on the flip side, I think that you also get into ethical conversations about, you know, a lot of people think that travel will become something for rich people. Because they're going to say, you know, we only have ex-number of boats that are allowed to go in, the price is going to go up, and then it's something that only the wealthy can do. And this was actually a concern probably about 10 years ago at the spot where this, there was a lot of conversations around this was at Machu Picchu in Peru when they started lifting the fee for people to hike the Inca Trail. There was a lot of concerns that it was going to be something that only the ultra-wealthy could do. So I feel really conflicted about the issue because, again, I just really believe that tourism can have transformative effects on people's lives. I really support travel, obviously. I've made an entire career out of it. So I do worry about saying, you know, only rich people can go there. Like that makes me feel deeply uncomfortable.

Brianne: Totally. It's the same with like the Galapagos as well, which is now limited tourist numbers. To my understanding, you're obviously going to know a lot more about that for the exact same reason. And the understanding behind it, you know, limits people, limit the damage. But of course, then you do get people with greater income who can go and that is deeply unfair.

Jessica: Can I give you a tangent about the Galapagos? You totally can. So one of the things that's interesting about the Galapagos, and I haven't looked into the research in a couple of years around this, this may have changed recently, but the Galapagos has really strict regulations on tourism based off of boats. So that means that you're basically signing up for a tour, you're on that boat for 10 days, you're traveling around the Galapagos. I've done it, absolutely loved it, it was a fantastic trip. I felt that it was really ethical and sustainable the way that it was done. But there's a loophole around this. So the loophole around this is doing land-based tourism. So basically there are not a lot of regulations around land-based tourism. And what that is, is that's flying to some places like Santa Cruz and the Galapagos and taking day trips out on boats to different islands. And the regulations around that aren't as strict. The problem with this is that it's caused the population of places in the Galapagos

like Santa Cruz to skyrocket. So there's a lot of people coming from the mainland to live and work there to support the tourism industry. All those people living and working there, they need supplies, so do the tourists who are there. So basically, they need food, you know, for example. And because of that, there's more ships coming and going from the mainland. The problem with this doesn't even have to do with carbon. The problem is actually with the number of invasive species that are being brought into the Galapagos daily on these ships, on these cargo ships to support the tourists and the people who are now living there for supporting the tourists. So I think that it's just such a fascinating topic because there are so many levels to it that you wouldn't even think about.

Brianne: Okay, because that is, I don't know, it's got to be number three on my bucket list to dive in the Galapagos, to do it on a boat. But that, okay, that's interesting. I didn't know that about land-based tourism.

Jessica: And the reason a lot of people do the land-based tours is because it's a lot cheaper than doing the boat-based tours. So again, it's coming back to the point that you were talking about and I was talking about earlier, these boat trips are expensive and people... travel should be accessible to people and then they try and find avenues because they can't afford these exorbitantly expensive trips, but there's ripple effects to that. So it is asking the big question is how can we make travel more accessible to people of different income levels, mobility levels, whatever the case may be, while also ensuring that we're doing everything in the most ethical way possible.

Brianne: I mean, there's going to be comments on this episode with people saying, look, travel is a privilege and it's not a right and people shouldn't have the right to travel wherever they want to to the detriment of our planet. And I understand that argument, but I also understand the fact that actually, as you've repeatedly pointed out, it is a transformative experience. It does make the world a better place. So this simply isn't a black and white conversation. That's why I'm really grateful you jumped on this with me because I have very specific opinions about things and we've overlapped a little but you've really added some nuance to the conversation. You briefly mentioned at the beginning of this something called regenerative tourism. Now I talk a lot about regenerative business. I assume it's something similar. What is regenerative tourism?

Jessica: So regenerative tourism really comes back to that community-based tourism that we were talking about earlier in our conversation. At the moment, it is a buzzword. A lot of people are using it as a synonym for sustainable travel. But the thing is, it's not actually a synonym for sustainable travel in the same way that sustainable business is a synonym for regenerative business models. Because the difference is that regenerative tourism is really all about shifting the paradigm on its head. It's about having a model that's not fueled by capitalism. So it's making sure that a community isn't saying, hey, we've got this thing, how can we bring tourists in? It's a community saying, okay, how can tourism support us and what do we want that to look like? Recently, I hiked the Hump Ridge Track, which was absolutely fantastic. It's a three-day tramp and it's set to become the newest Great Walk in October. And I found it really, really interesting because even though they don't define the Hump Ridge Track as regenerative tourism, it 100% is. So for the history of the Hump Ridge Track, it's actually something that the community, after their sawmills closed down in the mid-80s, the community basically said, how can we bring tourism to this region to support our community? So they built the track, which is just such an amazing tramping, it's such a sustainable way of traveling. I absolutely love it. It's one of my favourite things to do. So they built the track, which opened in 2001. But the thing that's really incredible, especially now that they're becoming a great walk, is that the track is generating profits and all of the profits from that walk, because that walk is community-owned and operated, all go back into the community. So it goes into their premeditation eradication programs, it goes into things like the operating costs in their local school. And to me, that is regenerative tourism. It's a community said, hey, we want to support our community and make sure that it doesn't die. We want to make sure our community survives, that people live here, that they can have really vibrant lives. Tourism can help us do that. What's a way that we can create something that can help our community survive and funnel money back into our community? And I think that's just the most brilliant example.

Brianne: Nice. And that should be the future of travel as much as humanly possible.

Jessica: I just totally agree. I just also have been writing about the Humpridge Track this week, and I'm just so excited about it. I find it such an interesting one, too, because when I mentioned to the members of the Hump Ridge Track, or the Trust, I should say, which is the charitable trust, I said to them, oh, this really sounds like regenerative tourism. And they were like, well, what is regenerative tourism? They had never even heard of the concept, which I thought was actually really, really beautiful because what they're doing is regenerative tourism, but they're not doing it because it's a buzzword. They're doing it because it's for the betterment of their community.

Brianne: Yeah. People hear regenerative, they think agriculture, where really it should become sort of, I don't like the term buzzword, as you mean, but it should become the way we approach almost everything we do, from business to travel to agriculture, I guess.

Jessica: Back to the start of our conversation as well, we're talking about how Te Reo Maori, it is all about regenerative principles. And that's why New Zealand is really going to be a world leader in this style of tourism is because it's something that's already so embedded in the culture.

Brianne: Yeah. And now we just need to listen, right? Well, certain groups of people need to listen. I've got a simpler question for you. If listeners could do one thing, well, not necessarily the most important thing, but perhaps the easiest, the first step they could take to make their travel impact a little bit lighter, what would it be?

Jessica: For me, it's not about making a travel impact later necessarily, but it's about something that you should do on your holiday, which is simply have a conversation and if possible, have a meal with a local family or somebody who's local. Learn about their country, learn about where they're from, learn about the issues in their everyday lives, learn about the joys in their everyday lives. I think that that's what makes travel really worth doing. I think it is the benefit of travel is, you know, it's that quote that I don't know if I necessarily agree with in its entirety, but I do think that travel has the capacity to break down prejudices, to really open up people's minds. And there's a lot of research that demonstrates that by going overseas and having these kinds of interactions, we bring those back home with us and bring those back into our everyday lives. So ultimately, my advice would not be what you should do before a holiday or even what you should do on a holiday, but it's what you should do when you get home from a holiday. What did you learn while you were overseas and what can you do in your everyday life to help support that goal or create transformation in your own home community based on that?

Brianne: Beautiful answer. And totally not what I thought you'd say, but infinitely better. In your Instagram bio, you say that you're an outdoor bath lover. Where's the best place you've ever had an outdoor bath? I've never had an outdoor bath.

Jessica: Have you never stayed at any of the Canobie camping properties? I love them.

Brianne: I haven't.

Jessica: I have a good fortune. So I'm presently living in Australia. I lived in New Zealand for about three years and I'm hoping to move back in later this year. And while I was there with my partner, we actually have a sat across the country, which was a brilliant way to get to know the country better. It was a great way to travel. Not only was it affordable, but we got all those low-end benefits that I've been talking about through this conversation. We were supporting local communities that we were living in. We were also getting to know those communities on a really in-depth basis. So I've lived as far south as Balclutha to as far north as Maunganui. And in Maunganui, I actually was house-sitting there and I took care of a camping property there, so I’m a bit biased. But it had two outdoor tubs set beside a river in an olive grove. How beautiful.

Brianne: That sounds quite nice. You might have sold me. I just worry that somehow people will sneak up on me, but maybe I just need to get over myself. For those who want to know a bit more, I know that there is something out there called the Sustainable Travel Handbook. Can you tell me a little bit about it?

Jessica: Yes. So as I mentioned earlier in our conversation, the direction that Lonely Planet is taking at the moment is we're really, really, really focused on making sure that sustainability is embedded in everything that we do. And you know, something that's been our ethos for 50 years is making sure that we're supporting the local community. You know, you're not going to find many chain hotels or that sort of things in our books. You are going to find them in old mom and pop places that you want to stay at. And then the other element that is really becoming increasingly important to us is that diversity inclusion piece, making sure that we're working with local experts so that we're representing the countries that we're writing about accurately. So in Aotearoa, the writers that we're working with are all Kiwi writers. We're not flying in writers from other countries to work on the books. We're really focused on making sure that we're representing the countries that we're talking about in a fair way, a fair way, an accurate way, a way that really celebrates the joy and vibrancy of the miscellanies. And we do have a book called the Sustainable Travel Handbook. And it really is a how-to guide for how to ensure that your trip, whether you're planning it, whether you're on that trip or whether you're returning home, how it can be sustainable and ethical and the best practices for doing so.

Brianne: Beautiful. Where can I get it from?

Jessica: You can buy it from the Lonely Planet shop. So you can purchase it online. A lot of retailers throughout New Zealand will sell it as well.

Brianne: Beautiful. And this is the big question. It's my favourite one. I ask everybody on the pod this. If you were supreme overlord, what would be the very first thing you would do to make the world a better place? No pressure.

Jessica: That is such a big question. I honestly would be – I'm the type of person who would not be comfortable with being a supreme overlord, that's for sure. Gosh, you know, I wish I had an easy answer like get rid of raisins, but for me, how would we even achieve this? You know, I'm actually on the topic of the conversation we're having today is I would make it possible for everybody to be able to explore and engage with different cultures and learn about the world around us. And basically, I would make it possible so that travel was something that was accessible to everybody regardless of their race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, mobility, and make sure that they had a chance to become global citizens and explore the world that we live in so that they can take that home with them.

Brianne: Perfect answer and exactly what I would have expected to sum up today's conversation. Well, thank you. It has been an absolute joy to speak to you and some really interesting points I honestly hadn't considered and I suspect some of our listeners won't have either. So thank you so much. You have been a real pleasure to speak to. This is Jessica from The Lonely Planet. Some details on her writing will be in the show notes for you to go and have a read as well as information on the Sustainable Travel Handbook. Kia ora kaitiaki. We will see you next time.

Brianne: And there you go. I hope you learned something and realised that being green isn't about everything in your pantry matching with those silly glass jars or living in a commune. If that's your jam, fabulous. But sustainability at its part is just using what you need. If you enjoyed this episode please don't keep it to yourself and feel free to drop me a rating and hit the subscribe button. Kia ora and I'll see you next week.

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