Embracing Sustainable Living with Ethically Kate - Having Difficult Conversations and Remaining Optimistic.

It's a special episode of "Now, That's What I Call Green," because my first guest is one of the superstars of the sustainability world in Aotearoa - Kate Hall (you'll probably know her as Ethically Kate). Join me as we explore Kate's personal journey toward sustainable living, the motivations that fuel her dedication, and the beacon of hope she finds in the midst of environmental crises. We chat how to navigate ethical dilemmas (ethics are subjective after all), and discuss the strange attitude that some people have about perfection being a requirement before they take action (and the judgement that comes with trying to be more sustainable). Whether you’re a seasoned eco-warrior or taking your first steps into sustainability, this episode is a genuine pleasure to listen to, which just might give you a different perspective on hope and people's actions in the face of doom and gloom.

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Transcript:

Brianne: Kia ora kaitiaki and welcome back to Now That's What I Call Green, the podcast where we are peeling back the layers of sustainability one at a time. I'm your host, Brianne West, and today I am very excited to say that we have a special guest. Okay, I sound like a talk show host. She's a sustainability educator, a friend, a businesswoman, and a genuine inspiration. Now I forgot to record this intro while she was in the studio. Okay, that's not true. I didn't forget. I couldn't do it. I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but it's the most embarrassing thing when someone introduces you in a super complimentary manner. So I'm not going to subject people to that. So welcome to another episode of Now That's What I Call Green and let's roll the tape. Hello, how are you?

Kate: Hello, I'm good. I'm here in my wardrobe in my happy place.

Brianne: You are. I don't know why I said hello in such a real creepy voice, but that's okay. That's okay. Thank you again. I do appreciate this. I have a bunch of questions for you, but I really just want to have a discussion because we have discussions a lot. I have no doubt we will have lots to talk about, but I want to answer a couple of questions in particular, which number one is why you care? Why do you care and so many billions of other people don't, right? Because people ask me this question all the time and I don't really know the answer, so I'm hoping that you'll be able to answer for the both of us. Do you have a moment in time that you can link it to?

Kate: Yeah, I have a few particular moments in time and I guess I'll start with those, but I feel like they've all built into who I am and why I care so much today. So I wouldn't just put it down to one moment or one thing that happened. And I love this question because I'm often asking, why don't you care? I bang my head against the wall thinking, yeah, why don't you care when genuinely I sometimes even want to care less because that would make my life easier. But I can't. Anyway, I think a few moments, one of them goes back to one of my favourite days ever on this planet. When I was nine years old, I lived in Mongolia for about a year and a half with my family. My dad was a vet, teaching other vets as a volunteer. And yeah, it was a whole Wild Thornberrys kind of moment. Anyway, I was out in the field with Dad. He often did things in Ulaanbaatar, which is the capital city, but I would travel with him out in the countryside and he would do vet work. I would just entertain myself. And on that day, I remember back to not what happened, but the feeling, the feeling of connectedness with other people across this planet and our interwoven kind of responsibility to look after each other. I remember back to that day a lot, not just around why I care about sustainability stuff, but I spent the whole entire day, so I'm talking probably 8 to 10 hours, with this other who knew only Mongolian, very little to no English. And I was the same, knowing English and very, very little Mongolian. And we just played the entire day and communicated through our bodies and our laughter and our just existence. And I think back to that day often because, like, the things that I do and the things we do over here in New Zealand, the decisions we make around our food, our clothes, everything all impacts everyone else and I love everyone else. We're connected to them, we are them and it doesn't matter how different they are from us or the languages they can't speak or how we can communicate. But weirdly I suppose it's like kind of intangible, it's not as obvious as the day I watched the documentary The True Cost and learned that the fashion industry was... Can I swear? Can I swear on the podcast?

Brianne: Yeah, fuck yeah.

Kate: Oh good. The fast fashion industry was fucked. Yeah. And that was kind of an overt day, but generally why I care is the people. I think often I'm tied to this like zero waste, plastic free kind of living. And totally that's an element to it, but that's, I, like, and yes I care about the environment, but I'm doing this, you know, for the people who exist and want to enjoy the environment because we are part of the environment and all that sort of thing. So for me I care the social side, which obviously is not detached from the environment, but I care because when you are making decisions and you have the power to make a good or a bad decision, you need to think about other people and make the good one, especially when you're in a place of privilege to be able to make that choice. And so, yeah, those are two things. The documentary and that day.

Brianne: I love that. That is totally not what I expected. I think you better. I guess I didn't know what I expected you to say.

Kate: It's quite out of the box. It's not like...

Brianne: It's actually a lot nicer because so many people, including myself, right, we think about the environment. I care about the environment from an animal perspective, right? I want to protect the environment for other species and that involves people, but you are for people first and foremost. And actually I've never come across that before and it's a really nice way of looking at the decisions we make that we don't even spare a second thought. Like I'm going to buy that fast fashion top, whatever, right? And people don't think about how it's affecting things. I saw Cotton On were doing something the other day and that is typical. I've completely forgotten all the details but they were doing something about maybe it was – I don't remember. The point was they were doing something about fairness for people and all I was thinking was maybe the first thing you should do is look at your fucking supply chain. I don't understand how people come to me joining the dots. The life of me, you can't do a marketing campaign on something you are so atrociously bad at, however, anyway.

Kate: And also when you think about the people, like sometimes there's that whole kind of story around people have destroyed the planet, people have ruined it, blah, blah. We know that that's not true because there are some incredible people looking after the planet and who have inhabited this world and done incredible things for it. Like, I think, yeah, generally people, we're told that we're the bad ones, we should go sit in the middle of a field, stop breathing, and stop existing. That would be the most sustainable thing. But when I think of the people, it also makes me actually even more passionate about environmental stuff, because I want the environment to be a cohesive, thriving place. I won't get a coffee if I don't have my reusable cup, because I respect the world that you exist in as Brianne. I respect that you want to go diving and not have my piece of plastic block your vision of a beautiful piddle. Do you know what I mean? It all links into one. So for me, because I enjoy people so much, that's why I care, but it's not the only care.

Brianne: That's such a unique perspective and honestly not what I expected and it's just really refreshing. And because of it, actually, it's a more hopeful perspective because one of the questions I have for you later is, how's your eco-anxiety? Because we're sitting at an 8 out of 10 personally. The other day, it was like a 9, so we've improved, but you were always relentlessly optimistic and I suspect you've just touched on why. You probably meet a lot of people who don't give a shit, do not understand why you do, and it's not that they're bad people, it's not that they haven't considered other people or other whatever, it probably just doesn't factor into what is a very busy, complicated or hard life, right? How do you navigate conversations with people who are apathetic or, and both, people who are actively, what's the word, derisive, shall we say? Climate change deniers.

Kate: So the first one, people who just don't care because they don't know or some people aren't as attached to their purpose, their values and their purpose doesn't, it's not as important for it to drive their actions. You know, there's people who are just happy to plod away and continue. It's like not that driving kind of force and that may be due to nature and nurture, I think, how they've grown up, what sort of household, but also just how they're built. And that may not be instinctually a thing for them to want to go, oh my gosh, where does my water come from? Where is it going when it goes down this sink? You know, where's my food? Just less inquisitive. And I think for most of those people, and it's ironic I guess because I literally for a job talk about sustainable living, but I encourage people, and myself included, in everyday life, I don't often talk to them about sustainability stuff. I actually stay quite clear of that. Potentially that's because I know just me existing and being in a room represents sustainability stuff and I don't want to kind of be the cliché and rise to what they expect me to do, which is stand up and preach and talk about things. But I try to just continue my life in a joyful, sustainable kind of way, doing things and and showing and walking the walk rather than getting really angry that they don't care because that's not up to me. Everyone generally has a reason why they don't care, why they can't care at a particular moment. What I find is most people are kind and caring. They just don't have the knowledge, the tools, the resources or the capacity, maybe physically or mentally, emotionally to be helpful if I get really distressed about the fact that a lot of people don't care. It's not going to be helpful if I ram information down people's throats. It is going to be helpful, and I've learned this from both studying business psychology at university and also living in this world for the last eight years, communicating around sustainability, is actually to do stuff and actually not to often be quiet, be quiet in the moments that people think you're going to talk, because I feel that that often gains a sense of, oh, Kate understands I'm a human. Oh, you know, like Kate's not actually out to get me or to get me over a line or to to make me vote or think or act a certain way. And so you're you're opening up that that gate, that wall between the people who do care and don't care, there needs to be synergy and an openness. What I mainly see is a big barrier that people who don't care are going to care even less or move into that space of climate denial just because they can, just because they hate the annoying vegans on Instagram, you know just because that it becomes this kind of like power trip over Oh, you think you're better than me even if you've not said that They think that's what's going on.

Brianne: Yep. No, it makes perfect sense.

Kate: Yeah, so that's kind of how I deal with it and I just I just focus on my own stuff You know, I think sometimes and you know to your point around climate Deniers and then that playing into your climate anxiety, eco-anxiety. You could just spend so many hours, unproductive hours, sitting and dwelling and mulling over all the things we aren't doing, but there is so much that is being done. I believe you have a choice every morning when you wake up on what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. And personally, I think life is a very short blip. Time goes by in a second. So I'd like to wake up and choose positivity and do what I can do. And that seems to work to actually get people on board when you just do it.

Brianne: So relentlessly optimistic. And OK, that's come out sounding so insulting, and I certainly didn't mean it. But it's just actually really, really refreshing because I talk to so many people in the climate change, particularly, I mean, you could talk about biodiversity, whatever, but recently it's been the climate change movement, and they are just, they're not doing well. And I can understand it, but there's also is an awful lot of stuff that's going on and actually a lot of stuff that's changing. And for example, the movement to renewable energy is faster than ever before. It's a very small example of things going on. So you're right. There is a lot to be relentlessly optimistic about. But the thing that I think this leads nicely into is the thing that drives me fucking insane. And I get it all the time on TikTok whenever I'm talking about sustainability or whatever. It doesn't matter what I'm talking about, actually, if it's tangentially related to looking after the planet. People are like, oh, yeah, but look at you. You started a company and now that company has massive greenhouse gas emissions or you started this or you drive a car. And yeah, I do, because I have said on a multitude of occasions, I'm not a perfect person, but that does not preclude me from doing anything that is better for people and planet and to suggest otherwise is really fucked up. I think it's a combination of lots of things, right? So these people are feeling defensive because they know that they're not perfect or not necessarily even trying anything. And it's easier to lash out than admit that the system needs changing, right? And just as a weird defence, I have an electric car, so I feel like that's slightly better. It's not a silver bullet. But what do you think about this whole project?

Kate: In the TikTokers, Brianne will say that you should have actually saved that money for your electric car, and you should have given it to a charity or something and walked everywhere. That's such a way to...

Brianne: This is so true. This is so true. I only live 30 minutes out of the city and it wouldn't take me long to walk to work or wherever the hell I was going every day. Yep. Yep.Yeah. It doesn't matter what you do. You'll never be enough for people, right? You will never be enough for people. And I know that you get these comments, which is baffling because you are a damn sight closer to the, and I'm using air quotes for people who can't see me, the perfect sustainability lifestyle as much as humanly possible, right? You do a lot better than the vast majority of us and you still get this bullshit. How do you respond without pulling out your hair?

Kate: Yeah, I used to and to be honest, sometimes I still do pull out my hair. Responding? Often, so let's take a particular example. My pet bird died. He was 23 years old. It was my husband's pet bird. I grew up with him. It was a very, very sad time and I shared that online. Everyone loves the two birds. I just have my one now. And someone said, now that your bird has died, will you go vegan? Like literally just a blazant message out of the blue. No...

Brianne: What's that got to do with a bird? Can you feed your bird raw meat? Anyway, sorry. Carry on.

Kate: Anyway, and I'm very open about you know the things I eat the things I don't eat the facts that yes, I call myself ethically Kate, but ethics are subjective They are not black and white, but I understand when someone people go. Oh you call yourself ethically Kate You can't do this this and this then it's like sure if your code of ethics is that then you know absolutely Feel free to deem me as unethical in your eyes, but I'm allowed to have a brand name as Ethically Kate and talk about subjective ethics. Anyway, and be different to you. I think in the sustainability space, actually in a lot of different kind of niches and groups where you're trying to do something good, it does, it quickly becomes you can only do good if you do it all and people really love to give you a label and then know all the things that are under there, but unfortunately a sustainable living Has a label, but there's there's no set of things that are under that list You know it's like how people love when they say oh, you know what type of lifestyle do you... how do you eat? And they want someone to be able to go, I'm a vegetarian. And then they list, you know, okay, they don't eat this, this, and this. But there's lots of vegetarians who have different things that they do eat and don't eat, and then everyone gets mad about that. So humans love to put people in boxes, and I guess when I'm thinking and responding to particular messages, sometimes I just ignore them because they're a stranger, they have no power or they have no justified input into my life. And the people I trust and respect, they have justified input. If they were to say something, you know, maybe I would take that on board far more. But sometimes I just ignore them. Sometimes I go back to them and say, hey, I can see there's a lot of awesome, positive positive energy that you're trying to get the world to a certain place where, for example, people consume less animals. That's so awesome that you have that passion, but how you're doing it is not right. So sometimes I turn it into a communication lecture around how to do good, because I want it to happen. I want people to be vocal and to help people consume less animals and all that sort of stuff. So yes, sometimes I didn't do a communication lesson. But I think these days more I just notice the fact that if I do respond to those comments or let them get to me, that's really unproductive. And again, I have enough people in my life who I trust to hold me accountable to my sustainable lifestyle choices that if I was doing something genuinely that wasn't true to myself, they would call me up on that. So I don't need strangers on the internet to help me with that.

Brianne: No. It's the very definition of ironic itself. Most of the people I've received death threats from have been vegans.

Kate: Wow. Death threats even?

Brianne: Oh, oh yeah, totally. Yeah. One time I was talking about how there's too much plastic in the ocean and a TikToker just started arguing with me in the comments like, why don't you talk about the fishing industry? And I was like, because this isn't even remotely related to the fishing industry because I'm talking about consumer plastic. And he was like, yeah, but why don't you tell people not to eat fish? How dare you eat fish? You're an awful person because you eat fish. And I was like, dude, I probably haven't eaten fish in 20 years. Let's reign that in." And he said, but why didn't you tell your people not to eat fish? Because that is a very complex, nuanced argument and whilst I agree with you that the fishing industry is a disgrace, what you're saying is kind of not the way to go about doing what you're trying to do. And unfortunately, I find that is true in every extreme argument version of everything, right? So yeah, I've had death threats from vegans. Years and years ago, at the very beginning of Ethique, I asked somebody who wanted a honey and oat soap, and I said to people, how do they feel about honey? And that was where the first ever death threat came from, and then they sent all their friends to come and get me. It was because I talked about honey. And look, I don't even want to get into the veganism debate, but the extremism and  the perfection is bonkers and it does stop people from doing things. And it's such a shame.

Kate: It does. It totally. I think most people I talk to when they hear my content, they stay around because they go, oh my goodness, like I can just do something because they just, people think if they can't commit fully, they have to just turn away. I was talking to my friend who had two newborn twins and she was really trying her best with waste and she was like, oh, I can't really do the reusable nappy thing because I've got two twins and they're so young and there's so many a day. And I said, hey, how about you have the two of them in reusables for one day a week or one of them in reusables for one day a week? Yeah, what if you do that? And it was like this light bulb moment of, oh my gosh, I could, you know, and that would actually save five to ten nappies, which is, you know, a lot of rubbish. But then she started to get scared that if she told her other parenting friends that, that they would then go, oh, you know, but I use all of the reusable nappies for my child all the time. So I just think there's this really toxic 'I'm looking in your supermarket trolley' kind of behaviour that's really, really holding us back. Because imagine if we used all of that energy into driving forward and actually looking after each other and looking at solutions rather than trying to tear each other down. Because we also then have to think that we're talking right now about individuals and imperfection. But individuals' impact is very tiny and minuscule, you know, so if that person spent You know the amount of time writing a death threat to you about something you're not doing. Maybe if they spent that time like writing a really carefully crafted email Perhaps ChatGPT or something could help with that to a large corporation about things they should change, potentially that would have been more productive for their cause and their obvious, you know passion and and the heart maybe in the right space but how they're doing it is not.

Brianne: We need to change the system the this is why I keep saying that the only way to change the world is to change business Oh totally agree with you go and harass your corporations. But don't be dicks about it because the people answering those emails are still individuals. I mean go for your life in the CEO. Okay, I'm forward joking. But I am joking. I mean, I've had people on a recent, the same video actually, talking about plastic. And my point was the people to blame are not the people who are supposedly just throwing their stuff in the ocean. The people to blame are the people who are making this goddamn stuff and also the countries who are exporting their waste to developing nations. And they were like, oh, this is like blaming the gun manufacturer when someone shoots someone. What the f- Why are you doing mental gymnastics to defend a company that I promise you doesn't give a shit about you, doesn't give a shit about the environment or anything? Like Coca-Cola does not need your defence. Anyway, it's, I find the world a very baffling place at times, but they've done very well. Marketers have done a fantastic job of turning us against one another instead of against the people who are actually causing the problems.

Kate: They have. And if you also sit back and you think, okay, these followers are on our pages, people who are trying and spending and dedicating a lot of our time to trying to do good or just do a little bit of good, these people have commented on our pages instead of the TikTokers who have done like Temu hauls. Why is the the energy I think often is directed at people like us who are trying our best to get messages out and we can't get all the messages out .But we're trying always it's directed there because I think as you touched on earlier there's a lot of people who are insecure about what they can't do and don't do and they're told by other educators that they need to do all of these things to be perfect, that they need to do it now, that they need to sacrifice their mental health, their well-being to do it all. And so when they come across someone and they're not doing it all but they're still being successful in their sustainable business or being successful as an online sustainability influencer, they go, oh my gosh, no, I'm so angry at you, and I totally understand that I would feel really angry too, but yeah It's a complex thing.

Brianne: Understatment.

‍
Kate: With trolls in the past I've often given them my cell phone number and said "call me" because sounds like we need to talk no One's ever called me Like I love that. That's genius and brave and you know, they're not gonna call you because you know they're just not built like that, but that's Cool a good conversation The fact they haven't called me. I think then shows often. They'll suddenly be like oh my gosh She's actually a person and she has feelings too, and whoa what did I do? I would never have run that Someone in person I never was yeah, it's a good way to diffuse the situation when you rise to their conversation

Brianne: Genius I love it. Brilliant. Do you have a specific story or like one shining moment where you were just like absolutely we can change this, this is amazing. I love these positive stories so I can never have too many.

Kate: So many just flash through my mind at once which is a cool thing. One of the most positive things and it's not an amazing business who's done something, there are many, but I think for me the thought in the moment that pops into my mind is I went to talk to a school, a primary school, and the teacher had just known me from social media and she said,"hey, can you come in and chat?" And I have a certain amount of volunteer hours that I can go into schools and chat because public speaking is what I do for a job, but I love going to schools. It really fuels me and this was one of the biggest fueling moments. I came to the school, always I have no idea what to expect, but I go into this auditorium and the bell goes for lunch, and I've set up my things and probably I think maybe about a hundred, a hundred or two hundred kids come in and there's a small group of them who line up in this line and they've never met me before but their teacher may have told them things and they all have different cards that they've made. Every single one of them I feel like I could pick apart and analyse these different cards but they drew these things around reusing and the wildlife and all these different concepts that actually you could see, especially from the whole session, meant a lot to them and they were getting it. They understood things. But they stood in this line, give me all these cards and I knelt down and looked at each one of them and they explained their drawings about the planet and they were just some beautiful, beautiful pictures. I think kids often take things like sustainability, you know, they, different ideas don't form literally in their mind around what this means. They don't have preconceived ideas around what a sustainable lifestyle looks like or how we can save the planet. So they drew and wrote all these words that I've cemented unhelpfully around sustainability. That was a really hopeful moment I often think back to because these kids are going to grow up and they're going to make decisions and already they're understanding concepts that they understand quicker than when I go and speak at corporate spaces, you know. Already they're going, yeah, that makes practical sense. I'm going to do that and and they also had a amazing compost space and worm farms and another group of kids took me on a tour and you could tell they were so proud of the space and they Loved it and they knew they just knew so much. These are you know, six to twelve year olds.

Brianne: Yeah, you educate kids you change families because the best way to change a adult male's mind is through his daughter. So you're I love that you love speaking to children I get asked all the time and I will say I've done it once but children schools scare the living daylights out of me because I don't necessarily have great memories of a lot of years at my school. You need to come and do a school tour down here actually then. Come to Ōtoutahi.

Kate: Oh, I will.

Brianne: We talked about, we actually talked about fishing, we talked about veganism and diets and so on, right? Which is actually something that's massively obviously cultural, but it's also socioeconomic, right? And the idea that everyone can just go vegan will immediately diminish agriculture emissions and deforestation and so on and so forth is a wonderful scientific-ish way of looking at the world, but it's completely avoiding ignoring the human factor. And it's a very elitist argument. And look, like I said about the fishing industry, despise it, but also it is the dominant source of protein for about 1.2 billion people on earth. And you can't just take that away. have conversations with people around that sort of thing, and in particular, because your focus is fashion-ish, I suppose, how do you talk, because I never know how to answer this question. Fast fashion is vile, right? I appreciate that it is sometimes all that families can afford, but it is massively impacting people over there that we just don't think about, and I think that's gross. My argument is, or my comment has always been, I'm not talking to you. If that's all you can afford, no judgment, no comment, nothing. I'm talking to the people who go and buy a onesie for one night or who will go and buy a new t-shirt or a new dress for a night out, right? But you probably have a much smarter way of saying this or a different point of view. Y

Kate: Yeah, well I think with the fashion space, absolutely your answer of I'm not talking to you, you know, buy the thing, do what you have to, move on. But to be honest, a lot of the people I talk to who may think they're in that space are not because they just haven't educated themselves around what clothing is and how they can actually save money if they consume clothes more sustainably. So I think I get I try my best to Understand why they're not able to and again if we get down to the fact that if they're living week by week it's actually not even possible to buy a $200 dress even if the cost per wear is lower than you know a seven fast fashion made one It's week by week $200 is not feasible I I Understand that and often that is the case for some people and again move on you're not the problem. Buy those things and don't buy them with guilt and only anyone else tell you that you are a part of the problem. But again, a lot of people just don't understand that they don't they don't picture or reframe Their thinking around clothes and what they need and why they need it. They are drawn and driven by marketing and trends and what their parents did, what their friends expect of them. They are pushed on by all of those things. So when they tell me, oh Kate, I'd love to buy ethical fashion, but I just don't have the money. I then again find out why, why they think they don't have the money to help them strategise a way to partake in sustainable fashion. Because for a lot of them, they may have a full wardrobe full of amazing clothes that they just don't know how to style. And they don't need to buy any more. And they can swap with their friends if they have any friends who are similar size to them. So I think when people just say no and they just want to keep their original habits, I will always, yeah, just ask more questions and just investigate, only if that situation, you know, only if I have a relationship with them that is, that warrants that, because obviously if it's a random person and they've said that, I'm suddenly asking them all their questions about, like, how much do you earn a week?

Brianne: Yeah, how much do you earn a week?

Kate: Yeah, how many pairs of underwear do you have? and just really like... But yeah, I think that's why I've done things in the past like the wardrobe freeze or different challenges and just talked about different concepts. It helps really deconstruct people's, you know, solidified ideas of that every Saturday morning is shopping day, you know, that I've just I've done this since I was born so why wouldn't I do something different? Just trying to... little tidbits to be able to rewire people's ideas of... Again, particularly talking about fashion and clothing But yeah, that's that's kind of how I do it because we always end up in a space that honestly for most of the conversations I have people go. Oh, yeah, I could do that. You know a bit better I'm not they're not about to potentially overhaul their entire lives which I wouldn't recommend anyway because doing that all at once doesn't really lead to long-term change. But yeah, most people are going to be like, oh, I could do this a little bit better. I could do something. Yeah, I like that.

Brianne: A lot of people, and I do like the way you framed that actually, because on occasion when I've brought this up, people have called me elitist. I mean, it's a very elitist way of looking at things, especially actually plus-size people. So they've said, well, there's no opportunity for plus-size sustainable fashion And I mean it's certainly not how I ever want to make people feel but um no That's a really really good point is that actually, you may not be as unable to afford sustainable fashion as you think because you actually may not need to buy anything at all. Because actually at the heart of it, let's be honest, that's the thing is don't buy it if you don't need it. I remember as a teenager. I would spend every, probably almost every afternoon and most weekends at O'Connell's, which was the, I don't know if it still exists, the mall in Queenstown. And that was just because that's not what we did. Now I'd rather set fire to myself and set short in the mall, but you know.

Kate: I remember going to the local, the plaza was across from our high school and there was a JJ's, which is still there. I don't know how this plaza of shops has evolved and there's a lot of stores that are empty and it's really gone downhill, but the JJ's remain strong. And I remember loving the bargain bins there and you'd sometimes be able to find matching t-shirts that we could all buy. There could be like three to five of us could have a matching bright pink with a horrible, horrible, I hate printed t-shirts, but a horrible print for like $7 or you like that was the coolest thing. Yeah, and so but actually to that point that's in the past right and we've moved on and we'd rather set fire to ourselves, but but those moments were amazing right those are childhood memories that I treasure and I actually, you know, I still find joy in thinking about because of the social elements, the feeling all together. It was fun, it was so much fun and it was using our money from our little job as a pocket money or whatever. It was a great moment. So I think it's also, it's not as simple as just being like, now I'm going to shop sustainably or now I'm gonna shop here. I'm just gonna stop that habit I'm just gonna like break that. We need to think about what we're gonna fill those moments with because for a lot of people They may be listening thinking. Oh, I I still do go to the mall every set date and do a thing I haven't broken that habit. So if you're just going okay, I'm gonna break that habit now. I You know, I want to do better you need to fill that time and that amazing feeling with something else, and something else that is productive. Something else that, I mean productive as in something else, not like something, I don't know, a drug addiction or something like that. Something else.

Brianne: I'm not sure that's a scale. I'll be coming and take up heroin.

Kate: Yeah, yeah. I'll fill it with this. But yeah, something else that brings you that same amount of joy that connects you with your friends and family the same amount, actually choosing what you're going to fill it with because most people set themselves up for failure when they just go, oh, I've heard something, I'm passionate about sustainable fashion now, I'm just going to stop.

Brianne: Yeah, that's so true. And you did write about the childhood memories because we never had stores in Queenstown. Queenstown was not like the Queenstown it is now. And I think the first store I remember getting was a JJ's actually. It's still there. It's still exactly the same as I remember it, which is not a nice reflection upon JJ's, but I will remain civil here. But yeah, I remember those bargain bins and I remember the t-shirts and I remember everyone. I remember at one point there was these jackets that they had different types of and they were just the coolest things in the world even though You know I would have died if my mom hadn't bought me a jacket, and then there was another time. We got a Dotti and my mom (bless her heart) bought me a tartan pleated mini skirt for her 15 year old daughter, which I still have! Interesting that's what that is.

Kate: And we'll see pictures of you wearing it on Instagram! There's certainly on Facebook.... and my Facebook is locked down for a reason. Yeah, I think I even have white long socks on. Jesus.

Kate: I mean, yeah, good as a memory.

Brianne: It's also good that I kept it. Because you know, should I ever need to dress up as I can't think of anything other than a schoolgirl for whatever reason, then I still have that there, you know? And on that note, we will leave that there. That has been a really fascinating discussion, actually, and you've given me some interesting viewpoints and you're so much more, I've known you for ages, but you're so much more positive when you discuss quite tough conversations. It's actually really, I don't know, uplifting. I was kind of in a meh mood and now I'm in a much more cheerful one.

Kate: I'm glad I can go to uplifts rather than makes people annoyed at like I do not like the toxic Positivity that you know I can sometimes have a night And I really I don't even feel that because I also have real you know shit days and moments of that. But thank you. I'm I'm glad for that feedback, and I hope that no one ever feels like I'm living in a fairy tale land of goodness.

Brianne: I think you just described the good and the bad  in a way that doesn't make one feel more overwhelming than the other. I meant what I said, that was a truly enlightening conversation that has made me think a little bit differently about some of the ways I approach stuff. A massive thank you to Kate for sharing your wisdom and your hope with me. It's conversations like these that remind me there is so much going on in the world of sustainability and there are so many people working in different ways to achieve the same end. And that, if nothing else, should fill us with optimism. It's not about perfection, as we said, it's all about progress. The next episode is all about sustainable diet, as I promised. It's taken a little bit of research because, as you can imagine, it's quite complicated. And the one after that will be about sustainable gifting because, I don't know if you've noticed, but it is that time of year. And I'm gonna have a particular focus on kids' toys. So thank you for joining us. I'm Brianne West. This has been Now That's What I Call Green.

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